Its no different than how you play now. The opponent’s damage options will be just as limited since they lack meter as well
Bro if you try a standard safe jump against a delayed wakeup it’s going to whiff. Not “get safer.”
If you mean a delayed wakeup safejump there’s literally no difference.
OK so how exactly does a delayed wake up make it less safe then… bro?
Well bro you’ll. have 4 frames of recovery and be grounded right beside your bropponent as they wake up, bro.
Besides, bro, nobrody said it would be less safe.(though as detailed above that’s debatable, bro) The only thing anyone said was you saying it would be more safe, bro.
Merry brosgiving, bro. Gotta “get safer” from this board a while but i’ll catch you at the next kegger
If you safe jump and the opponent delays wake up, then you’re should already be safe since you’ll have recovered and just need to finish waiting for them to get up. That’s how they’re still safe. It just means the meaty pressure will be different since you can make them whiff a meaty and hopefully punish, but a safe jump will still be a safe jump no matter what.
Unless you’re doing empty safe jumps, recovery doesn’t apply since you’re already having those recovery frames with current safe jumps anyway.
If the opponent delays their wake up the move will get safer if it hits on later active frames. Yes if delayed enough it will whiff, but I can think of no examples where current safe jump set ups will become less safe. I can think of plenty that will potentially become more safe or even work when current safe jump set ups don’t. So far I have yet to see any significant delay on DWU. All are a few frames at best. It may no longer be a good idea to OS after a safe jump, but the safe jumps themselves will be safer since the opponent has fewer potential options to beat a safe jump the longer they wait. It also makes the window for actually executing a safe jump larger since there is more room for error… bro.
I understand you are upset about CH, but getting pissy about it accomplishes nothing. Capcom isn’t going to undo the nerf simply because you are upset. If you don’t like it go to a loketest and give feedback. Otherwise you can deal with it, change characters, or change games.
I agree its a stupid and pointless nerf and its one of the things I plan to give feedback on, but the fact is that for the 3rd iteration in a row they’ve fucked with CH. Obviously, they are dealing with feedback complaining its over used, and feedback complaining that we need it for offensive options. I suspect there may be a hitbox buff to the later active frames since I remember lots of complaints about how difficult it is to combo into ultra. That would also help explain the reduced duration of the move… which I have yet to see as confirmed. Its just as likely they reduced startup. If not, I have a few alternative solutions I’m working on that could make the majority of both sides happy. So until you have all the information it doesn’t make much sense to get all bent out of shape, particularly if there’s a chance its for no reason.
Lastly, I have no problem if you want to call me out for being wrong. I’ll be happy to both admit I was wrong and go back and edit what I stated with the correct information so that others behind me don’t take it as accurate info…
But the proof comes first
It is different, though. Instead of having 2 meters when you have 2 meters, you’ll only have 1 unless you want to give up your reversal. Otherwise, if you don’t care about having a reversal option, then yes, it would mostly be the same. The difference will come when you open someone up and only have 1 meter, say I successfully hit a jumping fierce, instead of doing cl.fierce cr.strong EXFBA I’m pretty much going to have to go with the less damage option of cr.forward ST. That’s if I want to have any sort of wake up options. This also means early round damage potential has gone down a bit if you care anything about your wake up options.
This will definitely make me think twice about using meter if I only have 1 EX on stock, which means it will change the way I play the match.
Silliness
But that should only be temporary until you get Ultra (assuming you pick U2). by then you should have plenty of meter (or damage done)
Yeah, but it still changes the way we’re going to end up playing the game. Early round meta game will be much different until we have 2 meters, instead of 1, and then that will further change once we get Ultra.
Speaking of Ultra, has anyone figured out the invulnerable frames yet on U1? Is it at the start up, or is it once he launches from the wall?
Dunno but that’s the first thing I’m testing since I use U1 far more than U2
Edit: also it won’t change my Meta game since I have no intention of even attempting a reversal in the first half of the round. Its just way too big of a risk for me to comfortably take without the opponent being blatently disrespectful during pressure
Think of it this way. Once you get 1 stock of EX, the opponent has to respect your wake up game. They also can’t just jump all over you from that point on. Getting at least 1 stock of meter will probably be Claw’s priority at the start of the round. The meta game changes as soon as you have that 1 meter, you are no longer SF4 Claw of old. This also means you can’t burn that 1 meter, otherwise, you’re back to old Claw, and the meta game goes back to ye olde. I’m pretty much guaranteed I’m not using meter until I have a 2nd stock ready to do some real damage.
Of course as you noted, once you have Ultra, then it becomes even more dangerous for them to jump on you or apply pressure during wake up. edit This also means our Ultra is useful for combos, so instead of using it as a defensive option we now have it as an offensive option, and a stock of meter for defense. Now if we score a CH, we get U2 for free, and if we have a stock of EX, they still can’t jump on us and have to respect our wake up. * If any of these changes actually stick, we have a completely new meta game to work with and one for the opponent to respect.
I understand but the main goal is to deplete the opponent’s life bar, not to force the opponent to respect your wake up. Going back to the SF4 claw of old in USF4 is still a better situation than any other version of Claw because of DWU. And even SF4 claw of old didn’t have it too bad under pressure. We all should know how to deal with one option wake ups by now. With DWU we no longer have to put up with guarenteed ambiguous cross ups, vortexes, or unblockables. You also have to be aware of the opponent evaluating you spending meter for that wake up option. Close to the end of the round if Vega is losing to a significant life lead and no ultra, his wake up isn’t going to be respected even with 1 bar. Hell ppl may even do like I do vs Rufus in that situation and jump in jump back just to get reset and force a meter burn (although vs Vega it’ll probably be more like jump back fierce from Ryu/Ken/Vega etc. to bait a trade after invinciblity ends)
And with Vega’s extremely limited offense its in your best interest to get the life lead as opposed to trying to conserve a meter for defensive use. I get your point, I just think its overrated at how much impact it will actually have.
Right, the main point is to deplete the lifebar, but a good portion of the game is avoiding lifebar depletion. Now the game chances once we have a stock of EX. The opponent now thinks twice about trying to get in for that life depletion they want so much. You could do a deep EX ST to beat their jump in if they manage to get in the right range to jump on top of you, or they have to think twice about applying meaty or air pressure during wake up. I don’t really think delayed wake up is going to change things that much, especially if you’re in the corner. If I’m waking up mid screen I don’t care so much about cross ups more than I care about meaty pressure. I can dash forward under a cross up, but I can’t do anything about meaty pressure other than block, which just leads to block strings and chip damage, which is something I want to avoid.
Now that changes if I have a stock of EX. I can still dash under cross ups, and I can reversal meaty pressure. That will change how many people approach Claw on knock down. We’re no longer free in that regard.
I don’t consider that overrated at all. Isn’t that the very reason we don’t jump in on Ryu, or apply meaty pressure if they’re consistent on wake up?
OK so let’s use an example. DWU is up to 5 frames. Sounds reasonable and realistic based on the videos I’ve seen. How many safe, meaty normals with more than 5 active frames are you going to be concerned about? If they delay their meaty most will get beat by not using DWU and using a reversal for a counter hit (risky if they delay the “meaty” too long since they will block it), focus back dash, or block with a high chance its not a meaty.
OK what about the other way around? They meaty as if you don’t DWU. Your wake up reversal/fast normal now likely hits their whiff recovery, your back dash is safe except to some OS’s, your wake up throw grabs them, your wake up block doesn’t result in block stun.
The only issues are normals that have more than 5 frames and is safe since they cover both options. In that single situation EX ST is useful on wake up when your other options aren’t. That’s also likely reactible. Where if they guess right on whether you DWU or not you have to guess with EX ST on non-reactible pressure and no ability to make it safe. A situation where block is the best answer. The risk of being baited with no safety net AND losing the option is what is going to stop you from using it and the opponent is going to try to exploit that weakness. Yeah they’ll respect your wake up slightly more than they do now. But face it, EX ST FADC ultra isn’t a threat as far as we know. So the price for guessing wrong on Vega’s wake up is low. cHP and staying on your feet will do FAR more to deter the opponent from jumping in than EX ST.
^^^^^^
ANY character with a decent EX-reversal gets respect. You play any character with a half-assed reversal, and the game changes almost instantly. Only Vega has it this bad on the wake-up and the defensive. His 900 stun equipment loss doesn’t help either.
No more retarded herp-derp jump-ins and free jab pressure. Ryu can do meaties/overhead/tick set-ups all day on wake-up, yet you can’t do anything but block/eat that shit like a chump. There should be options against these retarded set-ups that end up being advantageous for the opponent, without any thinking whatsoever on their part. Let’s not even talk about dive-kick characters.
Variable timing, we don’t know how it’ll work. But, it won’t reverse the situation, only reset it at best unless the opponent’s being dumb.
EX-ST means they eat 180 damage for being stupid, which is a substantial amount. So they won’t always end up doing retarded shit, which relieves a lot of pressure off Vega on wakeup.
I mean, people don’t eat Juri’s EX-pinwheel with the excuse that they just burned "her only reversal!"
Shit hurts.
If I used ex-st once or twice a match and it did its job, I’m already happy. I stopped pressure and got some damage in return.
Even if I don’t use ex-st, the very threat of having it makes opponents more honest, and thus give Vega some breathing room, which he needs if he wants to compete at even a semi-competitive level.
It works for Rufus, Guile, Chun, Blanka, Rose, and Guy… and if you get a trade out of it it’ll apply to juri as well.
It all depends on how much life you have. Of course I’m going to bait it if I can, but if eating an EX reversal takes away potential offensive options that the NEED to mount a comeback (Rufus and Chun really stand out), yeah I’ll do it. Its no different with Vega. Yeah 180 hurts but if I have the life lead by 25‰ or more what do I care? That’s 180 damage instead of 260 to 360 damage for every bar in addition to avoiding a potential hard kd. So what then? I have 320 health to your 250. I just made you spend your last bar anti airing me with it. Why should I respect your wake up now? Where is your comeback factor? You have to land 3 throws to kill me. Or worse… I hold down back and wait for you to try to frame trap me and just take the throws.
I’d buy the needed defensive usefullness if Vega had an offense. But getting the life lead in any solid manner in USF4 is going to be a feat in itself. Short of the opponent doing something predictable, slow, unsafe, or stupid, you’ve got an uphill battle. And the thing is, every offensive option Vega has falls into one of those 4 categories. If you do get the life lead… you’re in great shape if you have meter. But that’s a really really tall order
You can trade ex pinwheel into ultra 2.
Edit: no she can’t… under any circumstance
You’re so dumb … Like, really.
If Juri attempta ex pinwheel, Vega can os trade it into splendid claw. Clear now?
Don’t talk to me anymore.