I like the logic behind it. What really kills me is the Spinning Bird Kicks - particularly the air version, which reeeaaally hurts her in a few matches.
This Chun is basically the old one, only worse. She is still more fun to use than Sagat though.
The short verison of why I quit playing Chun is because now I have to do a lot more work for a lot less reward.
I think most people would agree that Chun and Dictator were about equal in vanilla ST: top of the middle tier, or maybe bottom of the top tier. So I don’t understand why Dic got all buffs (better st.Jab, better neutral j.Strong, fake slide, better Devil’s Reverse) while Chun got almost all nerfs (worse Lightning Legs, worse ground Spinning Bird Kick, worse air Spinning Bird Kick, worse neckbreaker, worse super).
If you want to go into detail:
Lightning Legs
The fact that it’s easier to do is really not a buff, because top Chun players could already do everything they needed to with the old command. I think the only new thing she can do with the easier command is [walk-up st.Fierce xx Lightning Legs], but I’m not convinced that’s better than [walk-up st.Strong, cr.RH, follow up with a guessing game]. And the fact that it does less damage and dizzy…that’s definitely a nerf. (Does it have worse priority too, or is that just Honda’s hands?)
Ground Spinning Bird Kick
If the new SBK had anything other than a charge motion, it might be useful, but seriously, how often do you find yourself within half screen of the opponent AND charged? Not very often. You can’t do it on reaction to punish fireballs, which means you have to anticipate the fireball. If I anticipate a fireball, [j.RH, st.Fierce xx Lightning Legs, dizzy, repeat for +80% damage] is a much better option than [one hit of the SBK, then possibly get hit back for free].
Aside from that, in vanilla ST, with the opponent on the ground, the distance and speed of her Short SBK made it reasonably usable in the right situations. With the new arc, it can pretty much only hit on the way down, so it takes way too long for it too hit.
Air Spinning Bird Kick
Chun has a hard time with fireball characters, namely Ryu and O.Sagat. If she got cornered, she had a really hard time, and pretty much her only option was to build meter with jump back whiff air SBK over a fireball. She would land instantly, and could do it again if they tried to throw another fireball. But now she gets popped for free, leaving her with no good options.
Neckbreaker
I think the reason why people feared this move is simply because they didn’t understand it. First of all, you have to block it low. Secondly, Chun can not even cross-up half the cast with her neckbreaker. For half the cast, you ALWAYS hold down/back. There is no guessing game. (See D/F+Roundhouse Shenanigans under the Advanced Tactics section of the Wiki.) Chun has shitty anti-air, so scoring a knockdown with neutral j.RH or upkicks or whatever was a big accomplishment, and you should be rewarded with D/F+Roundhouse shenanigans, because you probably got hit clean the last three times you attempted an anti-air.
Super
Chun has good normals, and a good throw, but what really made her dangerous was the super. It is what won rounds for her. In some matches, her best strategy was to simply build meter (probably losing 40% or more in the process, blocking and getting hit by fireballs), then super. If you landed it, you probably won the round. If you didn’t, you probably lost the round. She needs that big damage.
I disagree that the [st.Strong / throw / super] guessing game is “mindless” or “mashy”, though I could see toning down the damage a little bit. However, it got toned down waaaay too much. I don’t think Sirlin took into account the fact that it is now considerably harder for Chun to build meter.
So I just can’t justify playing her anymore, especially when I already kind of played Dic for fun anyway.
Yes, I had a little input on the balancing of HD Remix, but I was only out there to play test the game for a few days. We discovered some good stuff, but that’s just not long enough at all to test something as complex as ST.
A few things to add:
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Lightning Legs DO have worse priority. Chun has three hitboxes - one for her head, feet, and body. The body hitbox is farther back than the other two (which is probably why she can super through fireballs), and when she did Lightning Legs in ST, her body hitbox stayed in the same place, making her stupidly hard to hit. Now, the hitbox moves ever farther forward than her other two hitboxes - ironically, this makes it a lot less safe Vs. Dictator, who can now hit Chun out of Lightning Legs with Psycho Crusher/Scissor Kicks pretty easily.
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Ground SBKs, except MAYBE the Short Kick version, are unsafe on hit.
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I just wanted to say that NKI’s blurb about DF+RH is too much truth. Even though I don’t think this is a huge nerf, the fact of the matter is, hardly anyone seemed to know how to block it in ST, and they still don’t now. I get at least one or two ragequits a week by just spamming meaty DF+RH. I wonder, actually, if the new trajectory makes it easier to perform a reversal against? That would be a pretty big deal.
Either way, listen to NKI. He’s pretty much one of the dopest Chun-Li players, so if no one will listen to me the 1000 times I’ve reiterated these points, at least listen to a top level ST Chun player.
Hey Faux123…we’ve played on PSN before haven’t we? I think it was with Jchensor…great Cammy!
I would assume that if it’s always blocked the same way, then you’d always reversal the same way, making the move that much more useless.
Funny thing…in the beta version, the neckbreaker left the opponent standing, and it could still cross-up. Sirlin thought it would be OK because he didn’t think you could combo off it, but he changed his mind as soon as I did [meaty neckbreaker as a cross-up, st.Jab -> st.Jab -> cr.Jab xx Super, upkicks] for 95% damage.
Looking back on it now, he should’ve just left it. At least give her something juicy.
What annoys me is that other characters have things just as potent. Dee Jay can do the combo (Crossup J.Mk / C.Lp x2, S.Mp xx Hk Dread Kicks) for like 95% damage on the entire cast (against some characters, just omit one of the C.Lps and you’re good to go). Or like, how Dic can juggle J.Mps after his super for roughly the same amount of damage that Chun used to do. I appreciate the effort that went into STHD, but some of the changes really have me baffled.
Personally, I don’t mind the super nerf, but I think the way it was nerfed causes problems I imagine were unintended. For example, besides lowering the damage of each individual hit, juggle state is initiated earlier in the super (which is why the super only lands five hits and can only juggle upkicks for one hit). The problem is, against characters with weirder hitboxes like Guile, Dhalsim, Sagat, etc. the super will randomly only get FOUR hits unless you connect the super from max range. Also, if you get only four hits, you’ll be too far away to juggle with upkicks, unless you do it near the corner. In that case, you can still only juggle upkicks for one hit. I’m not sure why it was necessary to nerf it in three different ways, but it can be really frustrating to work around.
Not really related to the thread, so apologies, but IMO with deejay you’re better off ending that combo with a 4x machine gun upper instead of S.Mp xx Dread kicks.It’s easy in HDR, safer on block, does insane damage if you get the 4x upper, and usually dizzies, and you’ll always have super meter if it connects so you can hit a crossup J.Mk / C.Lp x2, Hk upkicks, and juggle 1 or 2 hits on the super before they land…
But yeah, nerf is a bit silly for chun IMO.
I think both combos have their place. Personally, I’ve NEVER dizzied an opponent with the MGU variation even once. However, I’m pretty sure it does more damage. Both are safe on block. The Dread Kick combo is easier to execute, but it also requires you to know which opponents you have to omit the second C.Lp on. As for the Upkicks, it’s a risky combo, but it’s worth it, I suppose, if you want to corner your opponent, or get some distance from your own corner.
Hmmm…, well I’ve never played vanilla ST soooooo…, I know not these things such as more damaging super, cross up neckbreaker and high priority Lighting Legs. I know what you guys mean though. I’m a Tekken player and my character is Julia. She was good in DR, but is really nerfed in BR and I am considering switching too. Anyway though…
When I play Shotos and I start with the standing strong or low forward spamming, they always go for the Shoto sweep (low roundhouse). I space, wait for the whiff, walk up and throw them. What I want to know is, is there anything else I can do that is more damaging? Throw is good damage, but not if they soften it. I try to walk up low forward, lighting legs, but the legs miss.
How are they softening it? If you’re throwing them at a point where they can soften it during your rush, you might just be throwing at bad times. What you want to do is throw them to punish whiffed SRKs and Sweeps. And very occasionally, a whiffed C.Mk.
Another thing that a lot of good Chun players do (and something that I really need to incorporate into my game) is to punish stuff with Close S.Mp into C.Hk. There’s no possibility of teching this, and it does decent damage while setting up for a mixup game.
I have to admit, part of the reason I’ve soured a little on HDR is that Chun got nerfed and I wanted to start playing as her.
To be honest, people do not soften the throw if I am doing after a whiffed sweep because they don’t expect it. But at higher level of play I anticipate that people will soften the throw even if I do it at an unexpected time like after a whiff. So I was just thinking ahead. I will try to close stand strong into crouching roundhouse as a whiff punish, but just me personally, I have trouble linking anything into crouching roundhouse. The timing is pretty strict. I must practice more…
Maybe I’m just misunderstanding what you mean, but you do know that the opponent can always tech hit, even if they’re in their recovery frames, right? It’s not like 3S or whatever where they can’t tech during recovery.
What do you mean? Clearly Bison is “…not even considered a second tier character.” 
:rolleyes:
To be fair, some characters that can be crossed-up (see Cammy… :bgrin:) really had a shitty time blocking this move. It really came down to 100% guessing. There was no guaranteed way to block it. I have lost matches when I had 90% vs. 10% because of this move (got hit by it until I died off of one knockdown), and it’s not fun at all. The best part is that you can’t even mind games the Chun Li player (yes, I used “mind games” as a verb even though I admit that “verbing weirds language”)… for the most part, if you do it at a certain time frame, even the Chun Li player doesn’t know which way to block it, so it’s pretty much 100% random.
- James
I thought about that only shortly after I posted that. So yeah, I guess I’m full of shit, lol.
I guess, to amend my statement, it’s worth noting that in novice and intermediate level play, a lot of players DON’T tech hit during their recovery, so for a long time up the ladder, it’s very useful to throw people out of their sweeps. I guess I still have a lot to learn.
Are you sure the neckbreaker has to be blocked low? I swear ive seen it blocked high many times and i thought Ive done it too. I might just have a hazy memory and I trust chun players words over my memory.
I’m sure it can be blocked standing. Almost no one I play ever blocks it low, but as I understand it, there are some situations when it must be blocked low. I don’t know if that was changed for HDRemix, though.
I forgot to add one other reason why Chun is ass in Remix. The new motion for her air SBK (charge down, up+kick) messes up the ability to do instant jump straight up RH as anti air from a full crouch. You’ll end up getting instant air SBK, which means you get bopped for free.
Riiiiiight. Because winning the entire round off of one knockdown is nothing special…
A deep, meaty neckbreak done properly must be blocked low.
If you just do it against an opponent who is already standing up, yeah, you can block it high, but that’s not a situation that comes up very much in real matches.
Yeah, do you still have to block it low if it’s meaty in HD remix?