Chun Li General Thread: Blue Jade

Street Fighter V Chun-Li
3781

Yeah I was pretty much only explaining the thinking behind it, using urien as an example. For chun it would be:

Cr.lk,st.lp, cr.mk xx kikoken.

But for me since I’m mostly interested in the followups after the lights… I’ll just do cr.lpx2 then mix between:

Cr.mk xx kikoken
Walk forward throw
Walk forward st.mp stagger
Walk forward shimmy

And off the st.mp I would just mix between stagger into another st.mp or do an immediate cr.mk.

Slow characters don’t really have the speed to have a legit throw threat after 2 blocked lights, but chun does. So you can condition the opponent to respect your stagger and shimmy and throw by doing your cr.mk.

Basically do cr.lpx2, cr.mk xx kikoken till the opponent starts to block the entire string. Once that happens they are conditioned to block it out (note that yes they can reversal through the fireball, but that’s obvious and if they do, they are STILL allowing the cr.mk to get blocked so you are still conditioning them for the followups that I mentioned)

Once conditioned then you can start with the string mixups.

Personally what I’ve found effective is to shimmy after they are conditioned to block. Most players even when conditioned to block will default to delayed tech. So you can blow that shit up.

Walking cr.lks and stuff work well as well. I used to do ALOT of walking lights… but I found that I just didn’t get the damage that I needed cause I still wasn’t conditioning my opponents to respect the damage. Using chuns shimmy is a good way to do this.

This is one reason why I like throwing with chun from a semi sizable distance away. Chuns shimmy when used most effectively usually has to have a forward moving component to it. Like if I just do cr.lp then do nothing… my opponents don’t tech. But if I walk forward one damn pixel they tech. So to shimmy well from cr.lp you have to walk forward then back, which is hard to do in the heat of the moment against good players, and can get you thrown if they didn’t delay tech and have a big throw range. That’s why shimmying off of cr.lpx2 is more effective if you condition for it. The forward walking part is there and you can stop just outside the opponents throw range and bait the shimmy.

But you need to condition with a low move first so that walking backwards isn’t in their expected defense.
:slight_smile:

3782

What I’m basically talking about is the “2 gap mixup” as explained in this series. Before watching punk I had my observations on how to apply this, but it isn’t a perfect example. After watching punk, then remembering this video, that’s when things became clear.
Now OF COURSE you are going to have to reverse engineer these concepts from GG to streetfighter. I’ll leave that to you guys. But as an easy example here’s a 2 gap mixup for chun:

  1. Cr.lpx2,cr.mk xx kikoken yes there are actually more than one gap here but that’s besides the point. We are concerned with the first gap which is after the cr.lpx2 which is a true blockstring so it serves as one move, even though it’s 2 moves.
  2. Cr.lpx2, walk forward st.mp. After conditioning the opponent to respect the first gap and block, we can take advantage of that and get a staggered st.mp, which increases our pressure and gives us more frame advantage and a hitconfirm into an immediate ex legs.

That’s all that punk is really doing in the second video that I’m going to link. He’s mixing between a “fake gap” which is cr.mp,cr.mk and a “real gap” which is cr.mp, walk forward a bit, cr.mp.

Here’s the video where this concept is explained, the second video is a game between Justin Wong and punk where punk pressures the shit out of Justin with the gap mixup.

https://youtu.be/nAoxxa_o4l4

@0:50 of this game is a great example of the pressure sequences punk is using. He uses real gap (cr.mp walk, cr.mp) and fake gap (cr.mp,immediate cr.mk) a bunch of times in a small space of time. This is how sf5 footsie characters are suppose to attack. Karin is one of the best at it. But it can be used by almost every character with decent walkspeed and a single hit medium confirm.

Now all that’s needed to be done is find out all the ways that it can be applied to chun, and use them. Re,ember that CONDITIONING is the primary importance.

https://youtu.be/wmDedL2ATd8

3783

The issue i am seeing now is that A LOT of people are starting to backdash more. If you do st.LP and then delay the cr.MK then it is very likely that a back dash would either fully escape the cr.MK OR it would cause an air reset which will kinda kill the pressure. It sucks that B.HP is ass at catching backdashes.

Best thing i found to deal with this is cr.LK X 2 or cr.LK, delay cr.LK or cr.LK X2 , cr.MK and stuff like that.

I have played a really nice FT10 set yesterday against an Alex player, dude was super patient. I won the first two games by rushing him down but then the dude started turtling hardcore and poking with cr.MK and cr.MP. He beat me 4 games straight this way, i was super stumbled by his turtlness until it dawned on me that i don’t have to get in myself.

So I just decided to out footsie him and not try to get in. So I stayed out of his cr.MP, worked on whiff punishing it and his cr.MK as much as possible. That got me another 2 wins. The dude then started getting more desperate so he started throwing out CC normals more which are even easier to whiff punish. Then I noticed that he became super shy of throwing buttons and more conservative, he was totally focusing on the ground so i started jumping A LOT more and using air legs and the dude was so focused on the ground battle that he wasn’t able to anti-air me at all, almost.

So i ended up winning 8 games straight and took it 10- 4 overall. I think we should kinda accept not having to get in so much with Chun, once i started going with that mind set in the match, i started doing a lot better.

One of the issues with Chun is that your pressure game have to change tremendously based on your opponent. Some dudes like to throw tech a lot, some delay tech, some will are very buttonsy and you must frame trap them , some you gotta stagger pressure against. The nature of her pressure make her really tough to use against randoms but i feel that she is actually decent in long sets once you get familiar with the tendencies of the opponent.

3784

I agree fully. You definitely need to know your opponents tendencies in order to make chun work. Not only that but you have to constantly switch up your style. Chun is weak that way, but I’ve found I need to do the same with urien. I can’t just run frame traps and shit Willy nilly with him, nor can I just throw out cr.mk xx aegis like a fool… if I get blocked I lose lots of damage potential. But still, his damage is good so it’s less of an issue especially when he also has the st.hp of doom making people REALLY get respectful of your button neutral.

I’ve lost today to an Alex and a gief player. Gief I hit like a million times but the fucker mashes v trigger once and takes half my life… or gets fmk to wiff in a blockstring into a super and half my life… while I’m just doing shit damage with random ho and hk pokes. Feels very dumb. You win and you feel dumb, you lose and you feel dumber.

Alex seems to be able to keep up with chuns pokes a bit with his cr.mp and cr.mk, then add on damage from a powerbomb or 2 or a fhp, st.mp xx ex chop combo… and it’s a wrap.

At the end of the day, stagger pressure works with chun, and it doesn’t even work badly, the thing is that her damage works against her. Her damage makes it feel like you are pushing rocks uphill.

It gets better when people play respectfully imho, then you can play a loaded game of footsies and she can win with that. But people that just throw themselves at her with dashes and jumps and lots of not giving a fuck about random damage… they can be brutal. The other matches she seems to have a hard time against is charcarers that just run from her.

So that’s chuns very obvious problems, she’s not great at keepaway, she’s not great at getting in, and she doesnt have big damage outside of some very situational combos that rarely come up.

But she’s still fun and I still love her.

3785

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5HlrXSwcHc

Damn.

3786

Nowhere near the hardest hitting punish. But good damage for chun that’s for sure.

As chun if your opponent misses a reversal in front of you while you have v trigger you can activate and do st.hk,fhk,st.hk then link to ex legs or super. Does like 387 with legs and 530 with super iirc. But the opponent has to be hittable by the st,hk so things like rashid ex mixer might be out of the possibilities unless you air punish it.

3787

I have played 2600 online match with Chun-Li. I will be generous and say that 1300 match was in S2.

I have had people do wakeup reversal in the corner on me about 5 or 6 time total in all of these games. It is an extremely rare occurrence that you would get the chance to do that corner combo.

3788

Oh but when it happens…!
I tell my opponent “This is going to hurt” and bring the pain. The most satisfying time for me was still when I set it up as a trap instead of baiting a reversal (I think I beat someone’s throw tech attempt with it).

3789

Chun’s frame data from cfn portal site. It is thorough! Includes v trigger versions of moves, data for vtc, projectile invincibility, force stands, etc.

3790

How are you guys doing against Abigail?

3791

Ok so far but only because people are still new and experimenting with him. I can already tell he is gonna be a bad match for Chun.

3792

After Abigail Crush Countered my Juri’s Mk DP during it’s activation frames I quit and went back to Overwatch.
However, I thought he was pretty easily beat by Chun so long as you don’t get caught in his Gimmicks which reach halfway across the screen.
That non-overhead hitting move that you actually have to crouch block trips me up a lot.
He’s actually a really good example of bad design. Things that should hit him simply don’t. Capcom can’t make a hurt box for shit and they can sure as hell make a whacky hit box.

3793

I don’t see him as being a bad match for Chun at all. He’s really slow and telegraphed and the armor is no better than Zangief or Birdie’s imo (plus Chun’s V-trigger normals and lightning legs pretty much blow that up for free in addition to whatever standard tactics you can use to deal with armor). A lot of his stuff is easily punishable. He’s pretty much free to grabs and meaties (armor doesn’t start until 3f at the earliest), that pre-jump frame canceling trick is also too risky/gimmicky to be using that often (8f pre-jump means full combo if the opponent meaties).

His anti-fireball stuff, just like most other characters with stationary projectile absorption/nullifying moves, can be baited with Chun’s shorter ranged FBs (HP Kikoken thrown out of range) and whiff punished if they bite.
Currently to me, he just feels like another annoying tank character who’s not that hard to deal with… except this one makes up his own sound effects. Of course he can get big momentum swings if you’re not careful, has good damage output and some good range on some of his normals, but I ultimately see it becoming a match where Chun controls the neutral for the most part and he has to take a bunch of risks while sacrificing his large amount of health to get in and get his shit started.

-Btw, you can’t bait his V-skill with stomps (the bounce from stomp won’t avoid his followup). Would’ve been fun to mess with him that way, but oh well.

3794

He feels similar to the Gief match-up. Except his gimmicks and armor are much more threatening. Like Gief, you can be winning but all that can melt away with one wrong guess cause he hurts a HELLUVA lot. So I think he is going to continue to be a frustrating character to fight just llike Gief.

3795

There’s also a difference in how you have to defend as he gets close as well. With Gief there’s just a certain range where you know LP SPD can grab you up, but you can generally walk backwards/stand block without much worry. He pretty much has zero things that are threatening if you don’t low block unless he has V Trigger active and even then it’s still rare.

Abigail on the other hand he can get somewhat close to you and you don’t immediately have to worry about a grab, but once he’s in that range it’s like fighting a Urien or Karin where you have to start checking your toes. He has a particularly long ranged, cancelable c.MK which is extremely rare for this game and if you get hit by it, definitely seems one hit confirmable into combos. When he has V Trigger active its extremely dangerous since he basically gets a free guess with a long low into big damage.

When he starts getting close you gotta start blocking low which sets up having to deal with his overhead shit and keeps you from moving backwards which sets you up for his run shit.

3796

If you haven’t watched Defend The North finals yet, here’s a direct link to Idom (Laura) vs Punk (Karin) match. Clean 3-0 for Idom, so congratulations! Gotta love the series of medium knees (hit or blocked) at the beginning of match point!

Of course, that’s sarcasm there. But it’s not Idom’s fault to use the tools he has available. And it is kind of fun to see Punk eat them just like the rest, and I’ve got to admit it does bring to mind a tantrum from certain Wolfkrone about Laura’s nerfs.

All it boils down to, is: remind me again why Chun got nerfed as bad as she did? I sure don’t recall her in S1 taking like 40-50 % of opponent’s life with a v-trigger + 1 or 2 bar single combo. If anything, I recall her matches in S1 tended to be longer than what we are seeing during S2 in major tournaments?

I’ll give it to Capcom that they got it right with Trials Vol. 2. I was visiting a fellow silver Ryu and asked him to try Chun’s Vol. 2 Trial #8 (Crush counter to BnB). The results were quite predictable. He got the link from the dash to medium punch once or twice during a 15 minute session, but not s.MP, c.MK, and spinning bird was out of question to link. He then said that Chun Li may be a character a bit on the technical side. Forcing people to go through each character’s BnB’s might actually be one of the best moves by Capcom to silence some of the unnecessary OP commentary.

3797

Scrubs don’t understand fighting game meta very well so everything is OP or too much based on parameters that don’t make much sense in actual tournament play.

The main reason she got nerfed is her buttons used to be OD for poking and conversions in a game that has no focus or low commitment parry. They saw that with her second best walk speed and her old hit conversion ability that she was stomping on a lot of the cast neutrally and even in pressure. On top of her IALL always taking advantage of how poor some characters’ anti airs were.

Just when you nerf all of that you’re left with a character that already had trouble converting into meaningful damage from a range having more problems doing that. Her old style was to poke a bit to get the life lead, then go in and pressure with IALL and meaties to continue reaping benefits off that life lead. Now that you can’t do that, you’re only good at being a bully in neutral until someone else starts converting damage better, puts you in meaty/reset setplay and you get no heavy reward for what you just did.

3798

Hmm… I’m wondering if punk was playing 4d chess by playing chun in that tournament, then breaking out nash as his counterpick at evo.

The top player mind games are strong.

3799

Fourth master rank Chun Li :slight_smile:

http://i.imgur.com/qOGlmqD.png

http://i.imgur.com/nIwgLOE.png

3800

Good job/I hate you