Chun Li General Thread: Blue Jade

Street Fighter V Chun-Li
3081

Glad you’re optimistic, but personally after playing for a few long sessions, I don’t agree with most of this.

Anti-airing is too inconsistent even when I’m “ready” for the jump in. Getting stuffed or whiffing is really annoying when I know it would’ve worked before (like Rashid’s j. HP is the god jump-in again and Laura’s j. LK is 10 fucking active frames, so you’d better not miss or you’re gonna be in a bad situation). Trading is not as bad because at least the positioning is retained, but the damage is not in your favor. Really hard to play a solid game when anti-airs are lacking in consistency. I also got triggered when my call-out tactic of beating someone trying to bait EX SBK with a neutral jump by jumping up with them and air grabbing… actually whiffed the air grab right in front of them. That’s just stupid. Guess I’ll just wait and AA them on the ground and dash under since I’m apparently not allowed to get in their head on that level anymore.

-Ground throw range is technically better, but ticking is still too easy to just jab out of against the people I’m playing. There’s no way to really force a throw/trap game without getting a jump-in first (to be point blank) and with a floaty jump and her pretty much announcing when she’s going to V-skill, it’s hard to get into that position other than after a knockdown.

-Damage nerfs across the board for most characters are noticeable and I don’t really approve of it. HK SBK in V-trigger is negligible other than corner carry because in most cases you’re only getting 9 to 10 extra damage and no extra stun (check the attack data in training… if your starter is more than two hits you will not get more than 10 damage over using MK SBK). Plus it’s inconsistent in what range it will connect and it takes more time from your v-trigger to do as I mentioned before. This is also a factor if your opponent additionally refuses to quickrise and kills even more time off the v-trigger. It’s almost always better to just go for MK SBK… but now that does less then than it used to.

Damage nerfs are hilarious to me because I can still remember at E3 last year, Combofiend was pushing the great damage output as a selling point… and I was so on-board with that. Stupid me.

-4f cr. LP kills off some of her ability to counterhit confirm into cr. MK xx MK SBK in between certain gaps or “frame traps” that were not real (e.g. Cammy’s cr. MP x 2). You can still interrupt with cr. LK in most cases, but if you want damage from that, you are definitely committing to a followup Legs, which is unsafe if you’re wrong on the interrupt unless you burn meter.

-The extra recovery of st. HP does hurt in footsies. You have to be a lot more careful with it and any following button you put out on block… which I can do, but I feel making it -5 on block was entirely unnecessary. The additional whiff recovery would’ve sufficed.

-Slowing down an already heavily punishable sweep with the game already being at 6 frames kills whiff punishing ability even more. If you want to spend the bar for the EX Legs to try and whiff punish, that’s fine. I am LMAO though at Ryu players getting blown up if they have a habit of trying to abuse their sweeps. They really should just improve the input delay to at least 4 frames and revert the sweeps back to their old startup. Also, no more CH jab to sweep and less consistent CH st. MP to sweep from mid-range if that was something you ever fished for.

-cr. LK, V-trigger cancel and the juggle potential of CC st. HK in v-trigger are like the only “decent” things she got and that doesn’t really make up for all they took away imo. You’re spending more resources for less payoff in most cases. The added pushback on lights is also too much imo.

-RayRay still uses IALL and they still seem to be effective the way he’s using them, so that’s a toss up. You definitely need to be able to confirm you executed them perfectly in the first place and be ready to confirm the followup quickly.

-She’s not top 5, sorry. And probably not even top 10 if these changes stick. I’m just curious to see if the top players currently saying “oh I think she’s still great” will change their tune later on in the tournament circuit if they aren’t getting results. I predict Urien, Balrog, Laura, Dhalsim, Ibuki, Cammy, Karin, Ryu, Akuma, Ken, Rashid, Guile and Necalli will all have a better chance than her right now. And some not even mentioned will still be rough for her matchup-wise.

Learning to chip at white health effectively and get off v-trigger quickly WILL be a necessity for her to be competitive imo. I’ll be hopping on Ranked again tonight to try and work out the changes some more and see if I can make it back to where I was before the season started.

3082

IALL is still good. A move that instantly makes her airborne and minus 2 at worst still has its uses and will still cough up a lot of whiffed buttons and throws.

3083

Nah that’s minus 2 on block at best now and punishable if you don’t do them perfectly. Just not a lot of people paying attention to that yet because they are still kind of transitioning from the season 1 mindset imo.
Speaking of which, it’s pretty easy for Chun to cr. HK another Chun’s IALL on reaction now.

3084

The biggest issue with Chun Jin is that some characters can do what she can much easier. People are feeling that the execution (IALL, correct AA, good footsies) isn’t being rewarded and that is the core issue beside everything else.

It honestly sucks to have to do a perfect MK IALL to get in a mediocre follwup when Guile can just do F+ HK and get the same job done, while getting an even bigger reward.

I agree with @Darklightjg1 overall. Chun is 100% not a top 5 contender this season. It is way too much effort for a mediocre results. Like I said in the GL, Mika who supposedly have fallen off harder is giving me better results than Chun now. That is because a good decision with Mika is still being rewarded heavily while with Chun, that is no longer the case.

I do think she will be kinda like Karin or something last year, perhaps a bit lower in the overall scheme when the dust settles.

I agree with these guys that Chun is worse but i have also tried Ryu and Nash and these guys got destroyed compared to what Chun got, so it isn’t all too bad.

3085

I agree with 100% of what you said. Chun is not top 5. No way! Guile, Balrog, Urien, Karin, Cammy, Necalli and Bison easily outrank her. I guarantee that the high level players will drop her. Same reasons that you explained. Too high execution for no damage (especially in comparison to other characters), poor damage overall, heavily VT reliant, heavily EX bar reliant, poor shimmy game, really no pressure that leads into anything, bad AA, poor stamina and stun with nothing in exchange for it (maybe walk speed and s.HP but many other characters are just as fast with pokes that leads to actual easy confirms for damage with no trade offs). If you actually think about her buttons in comparison to other characters buttons, aside from s.HP and f/b.MP, her buttons kind of suck, and those two buttons do not lead into ANYTHING (unless you have VT or a CH with EXbar). Not only did they over-nerf Chun, but they buffed nearly everyone else which compounds these nerfs tenfold. I think that if they just nerfed her IALL and reduced the old damage on her BnB, I think that would’ve been enough to keep her in balance with the buffs of the rest of the cast. Really think you nailed it - Other characters can now do what Chun can do but better and easier. Chun is the jack-of-all-trades, but not very good at any of them.

Played a lot this weekend and my opinion of her fell further. Two more nerfs that I would like to bring up that nobody is talking about that really pissed me off this weekend:

  1. The airthrow nerf was MASSIVELY unnecessary! It whiffs the fuck out of everything and/or gets stuffed and it is very, very noticeable. I still don’t get it. They buffed Juri’s airthrow, Vega’s airthrow, and Guile’s airthrow but nerfed Chuns?!?!?!?! WTF is that about?! Plus, I never have seen any Chuns really use and/or abuse it. I think that I’m probably the only person who uses it consistently as my go to anti-air. The fact that they nerfed this but buffed other characters airthrows really makes me want to switch to Guile just for my personal play style alone.

  2. The one that nobody is bringing up but I’ve noticed A LOT is the nerf to the hitbox of the j.MK. I can’t tell you how many times I missed cross-up forward this weekend because of this nerf! I mean, why?! Her jump game is shit anyway. Also, with the nerf to the lower hitbox, it also buffs the anti air jabs of others. I was AA jabbed a lot over the weekend where it was a “WTF, that beat me?!” moment. It is just too much!

I honestly have had it with these nerfs over this weekend. Going be trying out and most likely moving on to Urien or Guile. I’m getting shat on by online Urien players that I know don’t know dogshit about SF basics. They just throw out moves and everything is either plus or faster or just flat out beats Chun’s buttons. If they are doing badly, the God damn VT will save their ass because there is really no way of stopping it and lasts for faaaaaaaaar too long. If this is happening, then I’m sure he won’t be hard to play, and Guile just looks fun. Aside from the walk speed, I think Guile fits my play style, complete with airthrows, great projectile game, and easy confirms. I’ll check back later buddies but I think I’m moving on.

3086

Guile actually have a really freaking good walkspeed in this game.

3087

I have to disagree with most of your bullet points.

It is not just AA although that is a huge nerf. Various punishes and combo extensions were taken away. I have a tough time connecting st.LK even after a crush counter HK. I could agree with nerf on its AA aspect, but they should have kept the rest of her st.LK’s utility intact. Oh and the mix up nerf after a successful AA using st.LK is another huge blow to Chun. Something like 20% of her damage output came out of that Oki at high level matches from my observation. Opponents now can safely disregard that aspect of Chun’s mix up game.

st.HP is visibly slower now and opponents will look for jump in opportunities even more. Considering how jump happy people can be against Chun, and considering her nerfed AA, the impact of st.HP nerf is huge. Nonetheless I could accept the nerf since it was perhaps a tad bit too good in season 1.

I did not see a difference in distance but maybe I should double check it. But I fail to see how it does now something it did not do before. Do you have such an example?

It is actually huge. Before the patch hit, in the anticipated nerf of st.LK I started incorporating neutral jump HK into my AA game with decent success. Now it is trickier and it trades often. It is a rage-inducing nerf I cannot understand the reason, along with air throw nerf. I mean, why would anyone want to nerf her air throw? Should they not want to see it more often? Only explanation is that somebody high up at Capcom headquarter hates Chun and wants her to suffer. No other explanation is possible because they did not just nerf her oft-complained AA (st.LK) but ALL of her AA options.

Another example of going extra mile to kill Chun. I fully expected a nerf to frame advantages. Heck, I could even understand slower start up. But hit box nerf? Practically removing mk version from the game along with never-performed HK version. Furthermore, air legs not only has a huge penalty when whiffed/blocked, but the reward of successfully landing them is also pathetic in most practical situations.

I guess the sheer brutality of her nerfs really humbled your expectation. I cannot imagine any other mains being excited about being able to deal 10 more damage in a V-trigger combo. (HK SBK instead of MK SBK) I mean, think about it. And while you are at it consider that her BnB lost like 50 average damage, and she lost many punish opportunities thanks to all kinds of surgical and sadistic nerfs.

I will agree with you here that throw range buff is useful and noticeable. But remember that she has barely become even in that regard with other characters from this “buff.”

This makes me wonder whether you are even serious. This is by far the biggest nerf to her neutral game. It is not just about block on wake up wake up jab (which is not what you are supposed to do against a competent opponent). It is about her block strings, combos, knock-down pressures, confirms/conversions, punishes, and etc. With some exaggeration half of her damage output came from crouching jabs in season 1. You cannot overstate the significance of this nerf.

I suppose they had to give Chun something unless they were to turn her into a grappler. Just to be sure we are on the same page, the easy-to-confirm cr.LK, cr.LK xx lk Legs now does 86 damage. (mk Leg version does 108, whoop-dee-doo)

Agree with you there. She still does have her moments, especially in V-Trigger (which now drains like crazy thanks to another nerf), but she is much, much weaker than she was in Season 1. She was strong and some tools may have been unfair, but the distance Capcom went to nerf her is not reasonable or even sensible. She is now akin to her SF4 self, and has to rely on ex legs and 1-hit confirms for damage output. V-Triggers should always be used for combo extender as soon as possible. Difficult combos are not rewarding in damage to the degree of pointlessness. Her anti-air is also similar to her SF4 AA in that she has “every tool to AA” per different circumstances. You just have to “Git Gud” and learn to execute all those situational AAs… One variable is the White Damage, and I concede that jury is still out on that one.

3088

I really miss 3f cr.lp > lk.sbk as my go-to punisher
s.lp > lk.sbk is more difficult, less usable since it’s 4f startup and with sbk damage nerf, the reward overall is miserable.
j.hk still bothers me too.
The throw machine works quite well atm, but it’s even not as good as her throw game in SF4.
I was so happy with Chun changes in S1 compared to her SF4 iteration, no mashing legs anymore and a useful sbk…and now I’m disappointed to find her old mechanics back, and even worse, in S2.

And seriously, that mashing legs input just here to prevent you mashing her 3f cr.lk is f*** ridiculous.
Can’t remember any character in any fighting game who got a useless second input added to one of his moves, only to make the execution even more strict.
It really seems that someone indeed hated her to do that shit.

3089

Was it confirmed that mashed legs give more frame advantage to do certain combos? Wasn’t that the reason they said they made it mashable before the official patch notes came out?

3090

Made the official switch away from Chun last night, so we’ll see how long that lasts. The opinion of Chun playing like the SF4 version seems to be ringing true to me as well. I’m not about to be playing SF4 Chun again for another 5 years. I’ve suffered enough.

3091

Nope, that does not exist. It was either misinformation, or they took it out of the released version from the PSX beta. Mashed legs is a nerf to prevent lesser experienced players from trying to link c.lk, LL xx follow up combos by mashing and getting a mashed LKLL instead of a linked MKLL, and for preventing the mashing of the (CH) VT s.HK repeated s.HK combos in the corner and getting a mashed HKLL instead and dropping the combo. It provides absolutely zero utility.

3092

You obviously didn’t play UMVC3. Wolverine had the same feature. Since his c.L went under everything they balanced it by giving you a mashed special that people called swiss cheese. If you mashed L too many times you got swiss cheese instead of a confirm.

3093

Well that is pretty shitty then. I’ve only played about 3 times since the patch dropped(work has been killer all of December) so I hadn’t been able to test that out yet. I’m still a little unsure of what to think of her. I’m glad a lot of her normal go to punishes and combos are still here (c.lp st.mp. c.mk to mksbk, st.mp to cr.mk to msbk and c.hp lklegs, cr.lp to lksbk are all still there thank god. I’ve abandoned her st. lp to sbk combos though. I can plink pretty well but I’m not bothering to do it anymore for such low rewards.

I guess I’m more lenient and amenable to these nerfs because I really enjoyed how much of force Chun was in season 1. It was great to have ten months of her being a contender, and I’ve said it a gazillion times already, but that’s not something I could say about any SF4 iteration of Chun. I feel like I can’t be greedy and complain about these changes when she was so great in season 1 for such a long time. Maybe after I’ve played a little more I’ll feel differently. I nearly played this game almost everyday non stop since it dropped in Feb. Then around November I stopped and have only played as I said 3-4 times since. Maybe I can’t comprehend the severity of some of these nerfs just yet. She stills seems capable though.

3094

We should have expected what would happen to Chun in Season 2 to be honest. You had people like Go1 and MOV saying that she had no bad matchups, you had people like Daigo saying that she is in a tier of her own. Then there is the endless screams of bitching from Americans.

You also had to consider the incredibly string showing she had in Capcom cup which is probably the reason they nerfed her even further than the PSX build showed. I wish they had nerfed her without making her feel completely different like they did but whatever. I have accepted this Chun-Li and just the fact that i am not riding a top tier AF character to victories anymore.

She doesn’t quite feel like SF4 Chun yet ( Thank god for that).

3095

Yeah I knew it was nerf city for Chun as soon as her own top players were talking about her as the world’s strongest woman with no bad matchups. At least with Vega, Ken or Nash you had their top players and other skilled players downplay them pretty hard. Chris T would complain about matchups that were in his favor. Chun Li was basically everyone who didn’t play her saying she was absolutely ridiculous and the people who did play her were just like “my character is ridiculous, yes”

No way you were going to come out of that unscathed. Ken vs Chun was such a regular tournament matchup in season 1 that people regularly joked about 3rd Strike whenever they were on stream.

Whatever I thought Cammy was better than Chun in season 1 and she surely is better now. Im just kinda holding out on new tech discoveries for Chun since she is a character with a lot of tools and it was her sbk and iall tech that pushed her to high tier. Without that she was probably Vega tier.

3096

I don’t know much about UMVC3, but can swiss cheese be performed with a motion input too ?
It’s the fact that a move ends with 2 inputs as a nerf like :
“Oh, but now that cr.lk can be cancelled into motion legs, is it not too OP ? And cr.mk is still good, we should nerf it too to prevent people mashing it. And we don’t want her to punish sweeps with her sweep just by blocking and mashing hk… Let’s nerf the execution !” Assholes, seriously.

What pisses me off is that most of the cast has a 3f normal now, and Chun is the only one who can’t mash it… And I can’t think atm of any practical combo with decent damage starting with cr.lk to justify this, since you need to be very close and/or to burn some meter /VT to get something significant. Most of the cast can do way more damage than Chun now and much easily.

I have to use her throw more now, but what’s the point ? Mika and Laura are already there for throws, so why did they need to make Chun throw game more important ? I really loved her more combo-oriented gameplan in S1. Now without VT, it’s footsies/throwing all day. And her VT got way shorter too. Even if you can build meter with V-skill, the time nerf is more impacting than the build buff.

I don’t really try to land the VT HK corner combo, way too situational (corner + VT + spacing + CC HK)… And it’s super easy without mashing anyway. I don’t see the point about nerfing the execution here, with that mashing leg thing. But well.

I’m not really complaining about the fact that she needed adjustments, but they really changed her game by cutting away too many aspects of her moves.
I still win, I still lose, but I hate this feeling that brings me back to SF4 Chun.

I expected mostly buffs for other characters, like Capcom said in the first place
Meh, should have expected this :stuck_out_tongue: … can’t really trust Capcom anyway for anything these days.

3097

yeah i dont get why the hell pro chun mains were hyping up their own character smh. Good thing she didnt win a single Premier Event, Capcom Cup or Evo cus the nerfs would have been even worse lol.

3098

Yeah me neither. Never made sense. It’s like they heard everyone else and decided to feel bad for having a good character.

What basically happened with Chun was people saw iall and instantly said “high tier if not the best” but they didn’t take anything else into consideration such as:

Her shit throw range (they didn’t know that chuns range was as bad as it is)
Her bad conversion range (they didn’t know that either)
Her hard time getting in
Her hard time with fireballs
Her no damage AA
Her lack of real burst damage

Let’s not down play it she was damn good. Top 3 or top 5 probably top 3. But she was never in a league of her own. That’s just the koolaid that everyone was sipping.

3099

The whole “tier of her own” classification was always suspect to me because no one ever took a single Premier Event with her (correct me if I’m wrong). I can buy that because she was that strong there was a lot of focus on building tech and strategies against her but out of all the people who played her not a single one couldn’t take one Premier event? I don’t buy it.

3100

I actually do think Chun was the best S1 character, but not for the reasons people stated. Eventually, her strong buttons, walk speed, conversion from 3f jab, wake up iaLL(I think only MOV and NUKI started doing this towards the end of S1, very strong), instant overhead into IALL, anti air VT conversions, 3S-like low forward into super confirm, air throw, air to air j.mpxxlegs would have all come together and just made her excellent. The main thing was she didn’t have any legit bad matchups. Maybe the closest was Guile. But no one reached that level with her.

She was by far the hardest character to play because she had a gigantic tool box and not only did you have to be able to perfectly execute those tools, but you then had to play with that long enough to master the situational awareness and mind games to use them. No one was close, really. I think we only saw 65% season 1 Chun, meanwhile every other character was mostly figured out, barring some DLC exceptions.

Now I think the overall assessment may be true. She’s a mid, possibly upper-mid tier character that is much harder to play than everyone else. In addition to that, she doesn’t have any matchup advantages that justify picking her over Cammy, Karin, Urien or Guile, who all have invincible EX wakeup, good buttons and better damage. With the nerf to wake up DP, Chun had the potential to be even stronger in S2 and maybe there’s some room for that, because right now everyone is still trying to see if S1 Chun is still relevant, when really we need to master S2 Chun to know how good she is. She’s a different character. I think she’s become exactly the kind of character Xian winds up winning with, but no one else can make work.

Either way, all of our bitching and moaning should come with the caveat that it’s early, even though when you look at Urien, Guile, Balrog, Akuma and Laura, it’s really hard to even want to bother with an uphill battle that might ultimately be a terrible waste of time.