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Those facts and #'s are not “just numbers”; they’re her character design.

Isn’t the speculation assuming that everyone plays their characters at max potential?

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man how i wish i had randoms (and in this case a great player) in my regular thread area and praise my character for being something half the cast isnt.

but whatever the human factor clearly out weights data in this game and this game only.

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I agree. That’s why I thought it was under the assumption everyone plays their characters at max potential. I just had to voice my opinion on this because I’ve seen/played/and done a lot of research on her.

170

Ya how dare he come up w/ these fictional numbers and tell us that our character is good! I lose matches so she definetly cant be any good. /Chun li bot auto reply.

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Numbers are meaningless. On paper we can make any character look scary. Remember the days before SSFIV came out, and everyone thought Dudley was going to be top tier because he did great damage and has a million ways to combo into ultra/super? Yeah…that didn’t quite work out by the numbers, did it. On paper, vanilla Chun beats Sagat, and of course we know that’s not true.

I won’t argue that Chun isn’t good in this game, because she is. But she’s not the best. I’m sure you’ve done research on her, but so have I. I’ve been playing her since arcade release. I’ve put in thousands of matches with her. I’ve taken her up against the giants. I may not be Nemo level, but I know the character, and I’d say with a fair bit of confidence, far better than you do.

But hey. If you can tell me how Chun can not get completely and utterly destroyed by Akuma, then I’ll concede and we’ll call Chun THE top-tier OP.

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Everyone has bad match-ups. We’re looking at the overall picture, aren’t we?

I don’t like to play Theory Fighter because anythings possible. So I give out facts instead. Chun-li’s Top 5 in my opinion. You can take it with a grain of salt.

P.S. Ryus the best in the game.

173

Yeah, wow, numbers sure tell you everything about the whole picture, don’t they? Or…not. Anyone can throw out stats and make any character look like the best in the game. Here, let me try…

OMG Dudley! He can do 330 damage off jab hit-confirm combos, his super can be hit-confirmed off jab, target combos, or even his overhead. His overhead can be comboed into for good damage. He has good AA in EX Jet Upper. Great range on his Focus. A normal move for getting past fireballs. U1 punishes fireballs and fierce/roundhouse pokes from mid-screen. U2 can be juggled into from mid-screen requiring only 1 EX bar, or none at all! Dudley for top 5!

…We obviously know Dudley isn’t top 5, while all the above is true, the “facts” don’t take into account that it’s really difficult for him to get in, and even with EX Jet Upper his reversal options kinda suck.

What these facts don’t take into account - EX SBK has little vertical range, can be beaten easily with angled attacks, cannot be FADC’d, and has a ton of recovery on block/whiff. Safe jump with backdash OS pretty much takes away all her options for reversal/escape, and since Chun loses charge after blocking the jump-in, she can’t even try to EX SBK her way out of the blockstring.

Her FA attack itself comes out slow, and will get beaten out by two-hit pokes and pokes buffered into specials. If you start a FA on a shoto jump-in, they’ll thank you with a free uppercut to the chin, which leads to safe-jump opportunities.

Sweep is BAD FA bait. Chun’s opponents don’t even have to hit her with the FA, they can just dash through it and nail her with their combo of choice.

Crouch tech? Your opponent will grin madly as he blows it up with a frame trap into big combo.

I’m not saying Chun isn’t one of the best in the game, she’s definitely a very good character. But this…

No. Even for an experienced player, Chun has to stay in control of the match. If she gets knockdowned, she can have all her defensive options taken away from her, and be forced to play a guessing game where guessing right means not taking damage, and guessing wrong means taking damage and playing the game all over again. A big part of playing Chun is to not let her get into those situations, and then if and when she does get in them, getting out of them without getting your lifebar destroyed. This can be very hard to do against good players. It’s what makes Chun more than “OMG look at her toolset and options she’s so OP!”

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@ topic
yes chun is the best in the game. that is all.

175

Again, thank you for that compelling and well-constructed argument.

176

Azrael, your effort is appreciated, but it doesn’t seem to be getting through to these guys. You know they aren’t worth arguing to if you keep saying the same thing over and over again.

177

I absolutely hate it when people say Chun Li is the best in this game.

She’s good, but not the best. Guile, Rog, Bison, Honda, Ryu, Sim, Akuma, Rufus, and Chun are up there though.

  • I can’t really see why people can call Chun the best in this game if anyone using here hasn’t won a major. I mean, w/o CP’ing as Ricky Ortiz sort of did. Before Lud made Top 8 at NEC, I believe Shizza was the last one to make Top 8 at a major.

I think by looking at tournament placings/rankings we can see that Chun is not easy mode. Simply by browsing and lurking these forums we put into a lot of work to get Chun to where she is now, which isn’t even z0mg uber good mode. I’m not saying no other character forum has done that, but I just don’t understand why people say Chun is the best. Footsies isn’t an easy game to play, no reversals without meter, no universal AA, only a decent BnB (cr.jab to s.fierce) that doesn’t work on some characters who are crouching, against a good player who can use their FA well our pokes can get raped, low vitality, etc.

Yes, her bnb damage is decent (or good if you wanna call it that), exsbk is decent (if you can call this move persay ‘good’ then you’re trippin’), and her super is (not gonna lie) pretty gdlk. But what can she do if she doesn’t have meter?

Honestly in a sense, Chun is like Ryu. Just nerf Ryu’s rushdown game, AA, damage, health, and add a backdash, pokes, little more stun, a really good super, and good walk speed and you have Chun.

178

u forgot the tits /offtopic

the other day i lost to a dudley placing top5, thats make dud op to me ;_;

179

I’ve been telling a lot of people a lot of the things mentioned here in the hope of debunking Chun as being top tier. I think a lot of the people who claim that she is top tier easily recognise her strengths because their own character lacks these qualities, but fail to see that their strengths elsewhere compensates for these deficiencies.

Chun had a very good backdash, but that merely made up for her lack of other options on wakeup bar ex-sbk which required a bar of super meter. The backdash is very good and was overpowered when no one knew how to counter it, but these days, it’s very difficult to get away with using this as a viable gtfo me option as the recovery is punishable on reaction. So what is left now is a 50/50 option of crouch teching and blocking against frame traps as was mentioned by Azrael above.

180

I don’t understand.

When Sagat was top tier in Vanilla, EVERYONE KNEW he was top tier. Even Sagat players. I think most of them would readily concede that Sagat was top tier, because he really was best in the game.

But in Super, even Chun players disagree about her being top tier, which should speak volumes in and of itself. People who know the character inside and out, don’t believe she is top tier. Compare that to Vanilla, when Sagat players knew and admitted he was top tier. Doesn’t our opinion as Chun mainers carry any merit?

Chun is good. She is not the best in the game. Top 5 maybe, but her bad matchups are so bad that it’s hard to make her tournament viable, especially when she has bad matchups against a lot of very good characters that a lot of players use.

181

lots of bison players swear that bison is like mid-upper tier, even I swear that honda’s barely top 10 in this game…personally I think Guile is the best in the game right now but people who main him insist that he sucks and no one should ever play him, Cammy players, Akuma players, all say the same things

not to say your opinion doesn’t matter, but we are biased here :stuck_out_tongue:

That being said, Chun isn’t the best in the game, probably not even top 5 - I think Cammy, Guile, Fei, Abel, Boxer are all better overall characters than her based on “who has the best matchups”.

However, she’s easily top 10 and her even worst matchups (Rufus, Akuma, all others are easily winnable) don’t contend with matchups like Dhalsim vs. Abel. Blanka vs. Cammy, Bison vs. Guile in terms of shittiness.

I’d like to reiterate that the reason Chun players don’t win majors in the US is because there isn’t any Chun players who are even close to the same level as Ricky/Justin/<insert top US player here> outside of Japan. Maybe Shizza but I don’t think he plays anymore.

182

I don’t know, I disagree regarding Akuma. A good Akuma player can make Chun’s life miserable off one single knockdown, and continue to do so throughout the round.

Rufus and Viper are doable, but with Akuma he can option-select all day and there’s nothing Chun can do about it.

183

not saying you’re not right, but he does that to everyone :frowning: Chun just has low health

don’t let me change your mind though, fuck Akuma

184

Sagat was so far and away the best character, that even arguing against that would have destroyed any and all credibility you might have had. He had two even matches and the rest were all advantage. Pure insanity.

The interesting thing about Super so far is that there actually is no clear-cut best character, or are the tiers actually defined yet. The bad matchups are spread out all over the board, so it’s tough to pick one character and say “Well, this person is tops because…”

I’ll willing to bet that the people claiming Chun is top are only listening to EventHubs tier listings, or they get beat by Chun online and don’t know how to fight her.

No no…Chun vs Akuma is really, really bad. Not nearly as bad as Seth/Gief…but it’s up there.

The problem is that Akuma just shuts her down, hard. She has no good answer for jump-back fireball, and on the rare times when she can score a knockdown, in order to punish a potential teleport she has to protect a distance that really takes the bite out of her mix-up game. It is very difficult for Chun to escape his vortex options - she basically has to make a right guess just to not take damage.

But more than that, Akuma just controls the match from start to finish. She can’t deal with air fireball, she can’t pressure him effectively on wakeup, she can’t really play footsies - all Akuma needs in this match is sweep. All of Chun’s potential punish options, save super, lose to cancel into Raging Demon ultra. Once Chun is on her back, she faces a very likely probability of losing damage and ending up being back on the ground. Chun’s damage in this match comes primarily from making a good defensive guess.

I would say that Akuma is the number one reason why we didn’t see more Chun in vanilla SF4 tournaments.

185

and dont forget focus bait from gouki ;_;

186

This thread reminds me of the time I went to a tournament, and some random dude was all like “dude Chun Li is broken LOL”. I think he played Guile or Rose - damned if I remember - but I do remember commenting that her placement was irrelevant, as the match was pretty fair for both of us. And then he was all, “nah homie she has good pokes and walk speed, Number 1, shits on everyone else”. People are just stupid.