1024

I don’t mind you disagreeing, but could you at least explain? I haven’t had much of a chance to really test Mario competetively, so I’d appreciate some more detailed input.

1025

I assume you can see what my “what” comment was about, how can you say his smashes are good if he “Has to rack up tons of damage to kill characters he can’t gimp off the edge”?

In general, it’s like you’re fishing for up-sides to Mario where there aren’t many.

In my opinion, Mario’s aerials are quite poor. The only stand out aerial attack is up air. Which can kill (hig percents mind) and has no land lag. Bair sends too far up to be a potent edgeguard, neutral air has lag for miles and is comparably weak next to Uair, and Fair is the worst of them all with it’s only useful feature being it’s spike property near the end.

I would forgive: “Useful up air attack”.

I can’t be sure one way or the other on the hitstun, but I didn’t notice anything significantly different. Besides, that’s a comparison between the two iterations of Mario. Not a noteworthy advantage significant to Brawl Mario.

I didn’t really think his throw game was particularly better at setting up edgeguards than anybody else’s. Which throw in particular?

I think Cape was about as a good a mindgame tool as it was before. i.e. Not very. Over long distances you could stop projectiles from bothering you, to be sure, but no one equally competent would allow the returning projectile to hit them, and in that time, Mario is vulnerable. It can disrupt the flow, but it’s nothing game breaking. Up close, it becomes even less useful. Characters with reasonably useful projectiles up close are liable to punish cape attempts (with it’s HUGE lag) whether they launch a projectile (and indeed whether it bounces back to hit them or not!) or not. For interrupting moves it’s stands as actually worse than most of his other moves. It’s slower than most, doesn’t stun and is very, VERY risky if it misses.

This point should be: “The cape (and it’s the possibility of the cape) inhibit projectile use marginally”.

A lot of his early kils would be very situational. The size of the cape is much smaller than you’d think and lining up his spike is pretty obvious because of how slow it is.

I suppose I could give that he can harass with fireballs when people are off the edge because of how good the angle is, but the other properties of the fireball aren’t that good really.

1026

Now we’re getting somewhere! Well:

  • What I meant by “good smashes” is that they have good speed and priority. D-smash in particular comes out pretty quick and can clear out space very nicely. U-smash has a pretty beefy hit-box and nice priority. Their knockback isn’t that great (start killing at around 130-150%), but they’re ok.

  • The aerials. Well, his b-air is actually pretty good for poking at your opponents, and his n-air comes out pretty fast so it can stop aerial follow-ups. It’s also good for chasing off the edge outside the prime range of his u-air. It still does the job.

I did make a mistake by excluding only his f-air. His d-air is even worse.

  • Meh, I guess I can forget about making a point with u-throw and d-throw setting up aerial rush-down. His f-throw, however, does send opponents at a pretty low angle, which sets up good edge-gaurding opportunity. His b-throw does the most damage, but it send opponents pretty at too high of an angle. It helps, but not as much as the f-throw.

  • The fireball, in terms of edge-gaurding, stops double-jumps and sets up either a cape (reversing their momentum) or an aerial follow-up. If you cape their up-b, it also causes a lot of trouble, all while racking up some damage.

I probably should have stated this eariler, too: Weighing pros vs. cons, Mario does suck. His cons outweigh his pros. However, I don’t think he’s as useless as he’s being made out to be. You’re riight, he doesn’t have many upsides, but I want to try to find any little trump cards he might have. I’m going to be playing in some tourneys in a few months, so maybe I’ll be proven either right or wrong as I play.

1027

While his cons do outweigh is pros, he can still be a very dangerous opponent. Here is an example:

[media=youtube]a0VbfdPjIKE[/media]

This is me against eddymasta, who has the best Mario that I have seen so far.

1028

I’ve been bouncing back and forth from SWF to SRK and back…

Anyways, as a Snake player, I understand that my character is in the running for TOP of the Top tier (I believe Wolf is the other candidate).

This means that I may well have to vary my strategies a bit in order to counter the “OMG he’s top tier must learn to kill” rampage that is sure to follow.

But is it true? Is Snake really the Top of the Top!?

Would be awesome irony if so. 3rd party wins.

1029

Very interesting use of the d-air in that vid… also tons of aerial pressure I didn’t think was possible against Wolf. I don’t know if it was possible to escape that pressure,though… Thanks for the vid!

1030

Third party doesn’t win.
An A and and F round out to a C, and I’d give Sonic a solid F.

1031

Yeah, that aerial pressure shut me down hard. I too did not think that pressure was possible from Mario myself, but he proved me wrong. While I was unsuccessful in escaping that pressure then, I do believe that it is possible to do so. However, if you can take away Mario’s air game away, then it greatly lessens the danger that he presents. The same goes for Luigi.

Also, I will be constantly uploading videos whenever I have a chance. More than likely, if you face me online, I will have taped our matches and you will find them on YouTube. If anyone needs their replays converted, you can send them to me and I will be able to convert them for you.

1032

Please repost this in the videos sticky :slight_smile:

1033

I just posted in the sticky :tup:.

1034

Mario can add a ton of pressure. He gets outprioritized on approach, but once he gets a hit in, he is quick enough in movement and attack speed to keep piling the hits on. Dair is actually pretty nice, sucks people in decently, long lasting hitbox, and it’s landing “lag”, is actually another hitbox.

1035

Mate, I think he was just a lot better than you. What you mean to say is - “eddymasta is a dangerous opponent”.

1036

It’s also online, I imagine a lot of what he did would have been more easily punished / countered if you could react faster.

Still, Mario is good, no doubt.

I should record some of my videos with my MK vs Zoogstin’s Jigglypuff. They actually go pretty close. Jiggly is surprisingly hard for MK to fight. I still think she’s way better than people give her credit for.

1037

Jiggz sucks.

Because I said so.

Don’t effin lose to Jiggs you fucking MK player you cheap ass whornado spamming bastard you.

1038

Seriously fuck Whorenado it’s all bout that Dolphin Slash!

1039

lol I didn’t lose I just wasn’t 3 stocking him like expected. Jiggs air game is nice. forward B has stupid active frames and priority, f.air can sweet spot and KO pretty well and also works nicely for chasing off the side of the stage, rollout got a whole lot better since you can’t kill yourself as easy with it. Her air game is nice as fuck and because of her movement she can control the pace of the match and duck in and out as needed. I think that should atleast put her at mid tier. She’s a whole fuckload better than ganon or captain falcon or sonic, that’s for sure.

Don’t make me mash B at you, you wouldn’t want that!

1040

As soon as I figure out how to fight with JP on the ground JP’s gonna move to mid-tier for sure </maybe>

1041

Zoogstin

Jiggs ground game is one of the worst in the game, so don’t try to hard to make something good out of something thats bad.

1042

It’s like an ant trying to outreach an elephant. Just ain’t gonna happen.

1043

Sonic should be a tad lower cause he has TWO KO moves and they still suck =/ At least he’s fast. He should just be played as an “annoyer”