You can’t loop with it, dizzy got toned down, removing the stored property AND giving it a whiff animation would make it nearly worthless.
If ochio got a throw whiff, I would probably just stop using it altogether in most matchups. In most matchups, Honda can do the fierce or roundhouse grab for near-ochio-style range and damage and get a free safe jump into more shenanigans afterward. I’d probably only do ochio when I need to get onto the other side of the opponent or in the matchups where Honda doesn’t get guaranteed shenanigans after his normal throws. As it is, in Remix I only use ochio where there’s a chance that the opponent could reversal me out of it, like after a tick throw, or where the opponent is trying to throw me.
Not that this would be a bad thing, really. I don’t think ochio is all that important.
Hmm. I still don’t understand all the Honda bashing.
All the complaints about his stored Oicho throw… While I thought this would be removed and agree that it should be, I don’t understand why this is such a problem now compared to ST. I disagree with James Chen that a stored Honda can’t be thrown. It difficult for sure but it can be done. I’ve been thrown in that situation but probably the same percentage that I’ve been thrown with any grappler. However, it’s poor strategy IMO to be trying to tick grapplers anyway. That’s just how the character designs work.
The changes to his bounce back after Oicho and more importantly, the loss of the dizzy damage after Oicho is what really weakens Honda in a number of match-ups. But I think these changes were necessary as it made his gameplay a little too simplistic at times. His super is better now, which is definitely nice because it was garbage in ST, with the exception of being able to store it so losing the storage for it is a nice trade off.
His jab headbutt is nice for a change up against projectile characters as long as it’s not overused. Top notch players have already adjusted to it nicely and will punish you if you get too predictable with it. Against high level competition, even with the jab headbutt and the improved jumping fierce, it’s still a bitch to get in on Ryu/Ken/Guile/DeeJay/Chun Li and to a lesser extent Sagat. And this is where his weaked Oicho really hurts. In ST he often needed the Oicho dizzy and traps to pull off victories. Now, you just have to work that much harder. Stored Oicho doesn’t do jack for you in these situations.
Honda should have a whiff animation, but he should have his dizzy power back.
Calling Honda a grappler is like calling Blanka a grappler. He doesn’t rely on throws to win like Zangief and Hawk. He relies on Slaps and Torpedo.
Ochio should have a whiff animation, just like the other command throws. But his Super’s second hit should not be hittable on block. And I don’t mind it being storable.
The reason ppl bash Honda is cuz he rapes the low tier chars. But it’s not Honda that needs to be nerfed, it’s the low tiers that need to be buffed.
Honda’s up-close game strategy has similarities to a grappler. Jump short - Oicho. Cross up - low jab - Oicho. He can even do different things, like whiff hands throw, footsie games into walk up throw, etc.
He definitely relies on the up-close game “grappling” strategies. “Slaps and Torpedos” work against scrubs and even average competition but his strategy needs to be expanded when you’re facing tougher competition.
This, I agree with. I think Sirlin did a pretty good job overall with his buffs and nerfs.
quote for truth.
and yes chun is a dirty whore and dont forget cammy. vega is a queer and blanka has crabs . thats all.
So what do you give non-fireballers to compete with a near-invincible jab headbutt and stored ochio?
How do non-fireball characters beat shotos with their invincible Shoryukens?
you can jump in on shotos when they are doing the Hadoken, but you cant jump in on a charged Honda.
Shoryukens are (generally) brutally punished on whiff/block.
I was addressing Blitzfu’s statement that low-tier characters need to be buffed, not honda being nerfed. I’m genuinely curious to know what he or other people think you could do without creating something grossly overpowered for other matches. So your question doesn’t really have anything to do with that.
But to answer you, it’s pretty silly to argue fighting Honda=fighting Ryu because they both have one move with some invincibility. Do you want to tell me that fighting Guile and Ken are the same because they both have projectiles?
Yea, after they whiff I usually c.MP with Vega and walk-up 360 with Hawk.
I think Honda has free wins against the majority of online HDR players with headbutts and HHS alone.
I respect whatever solutions great players have, but you can’t let things get out of control below their level IMO.
I’m not a pro player or anything like that, but I think I have some solutions to buff the low tier chars like Cammy, Zangief, Fei and Hawk:
Cammy: The biggest thing she needs vs fireball chars is an improvement to her Knuckle. It was supposed to go through fireballs better in Remix, but I don’t notice a difference since ST. Just give it more invincible frames and/or make the Jab Knuckle completely invincible from start to finish. Against Honda, IMO Ochio should be unstoreable, so she can do her rushdown thing. Honda already has plenty of weapons against whatever she can do, so losing one thing against her does not greatly weaken him.
Zangief: He’s fine against everybody but Honda, Blanka and Dhalsim IMO. I think he needs more invincibility on his Fast Lariat (KKK). This would help him in all his bad matchups. It would beat Torpedo more often against Honda, would help him Lariat through Blanka’s footsies, and through Dhalsim’s Fires and limbs, while not completely buffing him into a monster against his other matchups.
Fei: His Forward and Roundhouse Flying Kicks should have less air-to-air priority. This was supposed to be nerfed in Remix, but IMO they’re harder to hit than ever. And the Roundhouse should have ST recovery to help him against Honda.
Hawk: His Typhoon should keep the whiff, but give it more active frames so that it doesn’t whiff as often. Plus he needs his old Knockdown Dive as well as the new one.
I disagree with this statement. I think it’s at least 5 times harder to walk up throw Honda than Hawk and maybe only twice as hard as Gief. Gief is only good because he has a Crouching Throw, which helps. But Honda’s, well, he can activate it with Jab, has no whiff animation, and is Blocking the entire time. So with Gief and Hawk, if they try to SPD counter me, I can bait them and then Jump back Roundhouse and hit their whiffs. Or I can try to sweep them when they stand up for the SPD. With Honda, no joystick motion is required, you sit there, tap Jab non-chalantly, and you get a Throw that can also be a Reversal so it 100% beats other Throws, unlike Gief’s Crouching Throws. AND he stays charged for a Jab Headbutt afterwards.
Maybe it’s because I’m always looking to abuse the shit out of Stored Oicho, but I never, ever, ever get thrown when using him. I think I have Oicho stored like 90% of the time I use Honda. Balrog can’t even empty Rush and Throw me. There’s no reaction time required. Not only do people never get to throw me, but I throw people by accident a lot too just from hitting Jab and they happened to walk forward a bit.
Exactly. That has been one of my main points this whole time. Stored Oicho doesn’t help him at all in those fights, but helps him tremendously in fights where he dominates. So why is it still there? Logically, it’s a PERFECT change that doesn’t hurt him against characters he is bad at (fix Honda to help those fights) and hurts him against fights where he dominates. It just. Doesn’t. Make. ANY. Sense. Why. It. Is. Still. THERE. It was almost a FREE way to help balance him more. So it’s not that it’s MORE of a problem now than it was before. It was a HUGE problem before… and so it should have been fixed! The fact that it WASN’T fixed is why I get all huffy and puffy about it. It just seems unfathomable that it wasn’t fixed.
One, Shotos have to let go of Down/Back, so there is a risk. Two, it’s not an instant motion. you still have to go do a code, which takes 5 times longer, no matter how fast you can do it, than the Sonic Boom + Jab. Three, you can walk back, let a DP whiff, and punish. Three, Most character can even BLOCK Ryu’s DP and punish it. Some can even punish Ken’s Jab DP after blocking. With Honda, you can be a step back, be right next to, block it, get hit by it, whatever. There is NO punishment to it.
- James
I interpreted your statement as non-fireball characters can’t do anything against a turtle Honda (because of his headbutt and stored Oicho). That’s how my question applies.
James, I agree with you that stored Oicho isn’t a necessity for Honda and I wouldn’t care if it was removed as well. However, I don’t think it has the superior effect that you are making it out to have. Regardless of whether he has stored Oicho or not, one’s strategy should not involve trying to throw Honda. Just as it shouldn’t be against Zangief or T Hawk.
well its not like people are trying to throw honda, with honda having a pretty good turtle game vs people like fei when someone wants to get in they get oicho like crazy
Like I said, it was Blitzfu’s assertion that non fireball low tier should have been buffed more to compensate for Honda’s power level. Not mine.
As to your question, again it’s disingenuous because you’re talking in absolutes. Would you at least agree that a non-fireball vs. a turtling Honda, the non-fireball character has a severe disadvantage?
EDIT: jchen summed it up far better than me.
Not true. I use T.Hawk, and I get thrown. Truthfully it isnt easy to bust out a 360 on reaction to a tick (if you know ahead of time they are gonna try then yeah not so hard), I usually dp. Same with Gief. More than anything I get hit by Gief’s crouching hp throw not his 360, when trying to tick. Most times I do get 360 when trying to tick is if the person mashes 360, which I usually punish easily. Honda is in a whole different lvl when trying to throw. I don’t trying to throw him unless its max range 360.
Okay, I’ll tone it down a bit. 
I get really angry when I discuss Honda these days. But yes, you are correct, you shouldn’t be trying to throw Honda, Zangief, or T.Hawk in general.
But here’s the kicker… with characters like Cammy and Fei Long, it’s one only hope they might have to breaking Honda’s turtling. 'Cause when someone turtles, there’s only two things you can do: scare them to stop with Block Damage or scare them to stop with Throws. They can’t do either. And if Honda didn’t have Stored Oicho Throw, there is a very slight chance that they might be able to manage a Throw with their foot speed. But with Stored Oicho, they have zero chance. And that’s what makes the fight impossible. Being able to walk up and Throw him might have given them at least one tiny slight boost to their chances.
- James