I would give Cammy a faster Cannon Drill and it needs to have a safe recovery like Balrog. That’s why Balrog beats Honda. He has a fast safe way to attack Honda and he can turtle very easily against him. I also think that would make her competitive against other characters she loses against.
Claw and Dictator do well against Honda because they are mobile in the air. Make her hooligan grab faster
SweetJV’s idea of making his jab headbutt weaker is an interesting idea but I think making it lose that much invincibility would be a mistake. Blanka has ways to escape without being charged (kick hop) and Blanka is faster on the ground and in the air. I’ve always been fine with taking away the stored Oicho. I don’t think it changes the outcomes of matches that much. If you’re a SPD master, you can get out of tick attempts well with any command throw and Honda’s is simpler to execute.
The changes that would help Hawk against Guile and some other characters (DP hits low attacks better, improved footsie game, dive that knocks over) are all irrelevant against Honda so that’s easier said than done.
For Cammy I’m thinking giving her an optional dive kick on her hooligan roll. Make it pause long enough in the air such that Honda can mis-time the headbutt and do it too early, then get nailed by the high priority kick. I suppose in theory Hawk’s dive should already work that way but in reality the timing and angle don’t pan out.
Doesn’t sound like too much of a stretch for Cammy and it doesn’t feel too much like a dedicated anti-Honda hack. At least it would force Honda to think a little when a roll came his way.
“Make everyone Boxer” is an obvious solution (Chensor and I both mentioned it) but it’s not ideal. You could always make Fei’s rekkas safer and faster as well. But those changes are a bit uninspired and not true to the characters. I know Chensor is already not a big fan of Cammy being more drill / less DP and generally more homegenized. For once I’m going to agree with Milo and echo that character variety is important.
It seems to me that increasing the speed helps less against Honda than it does against most other characters in the game.
What about the height of chicken wings? I’m not a Fei player (I honestly dont’ understand him really), but I think adjusting the Chicken wings to either float over a head butt, or have some kind of anti-head butt property would be a good start with Fei.
As for Cammy, Id say somethign similar about the hooligan throw, I’ve watched a couple solid Cammy’s work Honda into a turtle position and then throw, this won’t work against a good Honda so much because of headbutt, so giving her a dive kick option and giving that inv property on startup of the dive might work. It owuld take alot of testing though to ensure its not too abusable verse other characters, but it would essentially almost be like an inverse flash kick in properties - going form the air to the ground, but with a much much much smaller hit box.
I like SJV’s idea to make the Headbutt hit on the 1st frame and remove it’s invincibility. That way lower tier characters have a chance to get in but he still has a viable reversal.
Well, this might work but dive kicks tend to be more broken than not if you look at all the ones that existed in Street Fighter games. However, this isn’t a realistic solution anyway. You can’t give her new moves because that would require new art.
Okay, don’t “make her Boxer” and let her continue to die to 80% of the characters in the game.
I think Cammy needs better ways to get around projectiles. She needs more offense. More ways to pressure. Faster hooligan and faster cannon drills to pressure. Better spinning knuckle against projectiles. Too many characters can turtle her to death, not just Honda.
Regarding potential improvements to Cammy, like I said, I’m not really for doing anything else to her, but just for giggles:
Her biggest problems are vs. projectile turtles and Honda.
So give her a slide. Kuroppi has advised against bestowing her with maneuvers that would require new graphics, so just use her hooligan slide frames for the slide animation.
(If you wanted to get cute, you could make the slide a special move that holds if it connects, like Blair in Street Fighter EX only she continually squeezes with her legs until the hold is broken. Not sure how you’d make that look right with the current pool of graphics, though.)
That would give her another, safer (though less damaging) way around projectile spamming, and allow her to approach Honda more safely (he would fly over her if he attempted a headbutt).
I would not make the drill faster or safer than it is right now (in HD Remix). I agree with Sirlin that that would likely make her too deadly. She can drill nicely now, let’s not turn her into a cheese factory like Boxer.
As for Fei Long, I don’t play him, so I am not at all qualified to make suggestions.
HOWEVER, how about a QCB+punch nunchuks move? (Yes, I know, new graphics required.) Something with poor recovery (like Honda’s 100 hands or Chun-Li’s lightning legs), but which beats or trades with dashing attacks, and which continues as long as the player mashes punch (again, like 100 hands and lightning legs). And let it be used a rekka-ken finisher, too.
I might be down with the dive kick, as long as it bounces Cammy back a bit (whether it hits or is blocked) if it hits high. No comboing after it unless it hits low!
Give cammy a fake spinning backfist. Dont let it end in the punch just do the hop move and give it the same properties as the original (going through fireballs and lows that is) and make it go through headbutts in some sort of way.
I thought about that, too, but the main use of the backfist is go pass through fireballs. Honda never feared her backfist in the first place, why would a fake one make a difference?
The more I think about it, the more I’m for a dive kick (again, it should rebound a little if it doesn’t hit low) or a slide.
Along those lines, I think I may have a better idea. Instead of giving her a new slide, why not make the Cannon Drill go under certain thin projectiles from the middle of the move (the point where it looks like she should be able to slide under one) to before the end of the move (the last frame when she comes to a sliding stop in her crouching animation…and we know you can’t hold down and crouch under projectiles by now, am I right World Warriors?!)? If turtling projectile throwers are the bain of her existence, then Guile would be at the top of the list for not being able to mindlessly throw Sonic Booms without the fear of dealing with a Cannon Drill or a Hooligan Combo. Granted, if she wanted to actually hit someone this way, she’d have to anticipate a bit, but it would give her another way around projectiles. In Honda’s case, the window in which she can go under Booms would be the window in which she’d slide right under his headbutt.
But, if we really wanted to make her viable and elusive, she needs her Spinning Knuckle sped up, too. (And, while we’re at it, can we make sure that it hits twice in every situation where the elbow overlaps the opponent…instead of it whiffing?) I think making both of those changes would make projectile-spammers stop that noise and start being more thoughtful in their play and since both moves are safe at certain ranges, it gives Cammy a way of cracking turtle shells.
Plus, I think a fake backfist like that would end up turning her hair silver and her skin brown. Save the invulnerable forward dashes for Storm. Sure, it’d be a cool mixup for her to have (between hitting and immediately being able to throw), but, in the end, anybody with a DP would simply see it coming and hit her when she lands. It would be about as useful as SFA Guy’s Bushin Runs outside of combos. DP fodder unless the opponent can’t DP…whether at the moment or ever.
Hmmm…ok…thinking about the Dive Kick now…why not…press kick during the Hooligan Combo to immediately have Cammy break out into the slide animation that she already has? Huh? Huh? Yeah? Maybe? :looney:
Cammy’s DP was never safe in ST, except against Zangief, Hawk, Ken and Guile (and to an extent, Fei and Chun). All the other characters could punish it on block from any range in at least one way.
Bringing back the old one will just make the Zangief / Hawk matchups completely broken in her favour again without significantly helping her against anyone else.
Exactly the opposite.
Many characters can (after landing a random knockdown hit on him) safe-jump against Honda and option-select their DP with a normal. As an example, Cammy can :r::d::df::hk::mp:, timing the :hk: such that if the jump-in hits then the slight delay before landing prevents the DP from being executed thus allowing cr.:mp: to come out, otherwise Honda reverses straight into a seemingly psychic DP.
Giving Headbutt no startup entirely eliminates this option.
As for Fei Long, my thought would be that, since the Chicken Wing has noticable startup, it should be safe on block, like it was in Vanilla ST. According to T.Akiba’s Frame Data, in Vanilla, it either had 20 or 21 frames in the case of the :hk: one and 13, 11, and 10 recovery frames for each one respectively. If someone tried to repeatedly Chicken Wing, cl.:hp:, Chicken Wing, they should get countered before the last Chicken Wing comes out. If it didn’t work that way, then it should, IMHO. He should also have his safe :lk: Flaming Kick back from Vanilla ST. Keep the HDR Rekka Kens and Super for certain!
Beyond that…yeah…I dunno.
Edit: Wait…yeah…I do…I think. Make crouching :mk: interruptable!! YEAH!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!! Fei Long becomes even more of a poking beast!!! Ok…I’m not really serious, but anybody think that increasing his comboability range with an interruptible crouching :mk: is a good idea? Bad idea? Discuss…if you want to.
Edit #2: Another idea…and I heard someone else suggest this and it’s my main gripe about Fei Long: Give him back his back and forward jumping :hk: from Super!!! The man needs a more powerful crossup and a move that can hit low moves from the air. No more free sweeps from jumps!
What would Honda do against a Zangief who just lariats all day? The “randomly” trading headbutt is his only weapon against Zangief as it is. I’d rather see Gief’s green hand gain larger a hit box/more hitting frames making it easier to counter-hit with (but made less safe on block/whiff).
Maybe? :looney: