1601

That’s not how you fight Sagat. Watch Dieminion vs LI Joe and Dieminion vs Sanford. You need patience to fight Sagat. And FK doesn’t come into play so often in that match-up. And it’s not because it’s bad. It’s just not relevant against Sagat.

1602

This FTW lol somebody send that into Seth Killian’s blog or something. Fuck that Guile feels more Guile-y crap wtf is that vague as shit.

1603

i want Flash kick -> FADC -> air throw :smiley:

1604

There are lots of tweaks that are at least as serious as Guile’s in SF4.

Boxer’s tweaks make him more of a footsie zoning character who has an easier time playing defense than offense. Blanka is a runaway character. Chun Li has lots of changes from her previous incarnations while maintaining many of the same general goals. Dhalsim’s teleport is very different, his drills and mummy are worse, his ultra is totally new, yoga tower is totally new, he does less damage and stun than before, his antiairs are worse, and he has a real combo. Honda’s slaps don’t move him forward, his headbutt isn’t a real antiair and is unsafe against many characters, and his normals are very all different. Fei’s rekkas do much less damage and more unsafe than they were in ST. Ken has new normals, his fireball is worse, his dragon punches are probably worse, and his throw is worse. Dictator is a complete 180 from how he was in ST; in ST he was an offensive machine that could kill in one combo but had no good escapes, and in SF4 he deals crappy damage but has a million escapes. Vega has worse pokes, worse wakeup options, and his roll is terrible, although he does have some good new things too. Zangief has very different normals, the green hand and lariat are totally different, and his throws are much less dangerous than they were in the SF2 games and Alpha 2. Guile has a worse flash kick, some worse normals, some better normals, and an airthrow that’s the best it’s ever been.

Many of these changes made individual moves or aspects of a character’s game worse. But you know what, for most characters that was made up for by other beneficial changes. So yeah, command grabs are much less scary in SF4 than they’ve been in previous games, but Gief makes up for it by being more damaging in combos, having better footsies, and being slightly more mobile. Dhalsim makes up for doing less damage and stun and having worse drills, mummies, and antiairs by having more range, being more mobile, getting a new way around fireballs, getting a sick ultra, and having real combos. Honda makes up for his hand slaps not moving forward by having sick and his headbutt being a crappy antiair that’s unsafe on block in many matchups by having better combos, better footsies, and better air attacks.

Guile has to overcome a worse flash kick and some worse normals. Do you guys not see that his standing fierces are great, that his airthrow is great, that he has confirmable combos starting with a low attack, that crouching fierce is still useful if not great, that flash kick is still useful if not very good, that he has situational antiairs against almost every jump in, that he has good meaty and safe jump setups, that sonic booms are still good even though they could be better? Guile depends more on mobility, setups, and spacing than before. Let’s not take him back to where he can just react with a flash kick, let’s keep buffing the things that are interesting about him in SF4.

Guile isn’t bad, he’s just a very competitive lower tier. Unfortunately Capcom didn’t give him back quite enough buffs to make up for changes in other areas. But again, that’s not a problem with the idea of tweaking, it’s just a solvable problem with the kinds of buffs he got. Again, making his walking normals faster, tweaking some other normals’ hitboxes and damage, making flash kick recover faster, and making all booms recover like jab could I think make him a good character again without making him like he’s been in other games.

1605

So…your saying, outside of Guiles stats being good but needed a little better…SFIV is a footsie game.

And Super will be even more of footsie game, correct? That’s what the developers are shooting for.

1606

Firstly, I’m not suggesting guile is complete trash. I’m fully aware of guile’s good stuff. I have little issue with sonic boom outside of the MP/HP version being slower in recovery, and am probably more exited than most about him getting better pokes.

And I’ll admit that a good number of characters don’t have a formula set in stone (bison and chun li become 100% different characters in almost every game they come out in). But others have tools that show up so often that it defines them as characters. Dhalsim does less damage (like almost everyone else in the game), but still has ranged pokes, and a slide that goes under fireballs. Command grabs are worse, but gief still has the best grab in the game. Flask kick was never as good as srk, but it was always guiles AA/reversal of choice. Even you’re asking for the same recovery on all booms, which is a change to the way they used to work.

New tools are…new. I don’t see how that has any relation to a character not getting an old tool back. While new tools open up new avenues of gameplay, I don’t believe that should mean old avenues of gameplay should be done away with. Unless it would be OP, they should be able to do everything they used to do in older games, ESPECIALLY if they’ve been able to do something throughout multiple versions.

I don’t understand the idea of purposely keeping guile’s flash kick bad to preserve some alternate playstyle. A playstyle, which would still be just as viable as it was before, but with the additional and flexible option of (what is essentially) an SRK. I don’t think it would hurt his design, and go hand in hand with better pokes in making guile feel “more guile-y”.

Ah well. Regardless, once the game comes out, it’s out, and our talking will be pointless.

1607

^you make it seem as if flashkick is worthless or something. It’s easy to combo into, good reversal, does good damage. It’s a decent AA (light fk works well and doesn’t trade as often), it’s just not his best AA anymore. FK needs some tweaks, but it doesn’t need an overhaul. I’m not sure it has to be insanely reliable just because it was like that in SF2. I’m not sure the devs have that as a priority. FK isn’t his main weapon against jump-ins. It’s no big deal. It’s not like Guile doesn’t have enough AA options.

1608

it is worthless in comparison to other characters tools. You don’t seem to get that.

1609

I’m a guile user. I know to use it properly and what-knot, and I like it…but your right. It is pitiful incomparison to other peoples’s SRK’s. I know Guile has great AA options…but if his normals have better applications then his FK…yeah, that won’t work.

1610

Personally I think the biggest problem with Guile (Beyond shitty Ultra) is his lack of range on his normals, its no wonder he sucks when he is his ST version with less range.

1611

Wait, what?

1612

This thread is about ways to improve Guile, not justifications about what makes him crap. And for my money, improving the FK’s overhead coverage (at the very least) tops the list.

megadeth, instead of your usual troll, you provided some good points, but the bolded print is where you missed the big one. Why *isn’t *it his best AA? It should be, I think. Is it useless? No, of course not. But it should be better than it is, if not what it was.

Here’s my point: I don’t care what other options Guile has. If I want to abuse FK stupidly, that’s my right. Why shouldn’t it do what it was designed to do? Think about this: if you jump at, say, Rufus, he can meet you in the air with RH, and thats an Ultra. Or EX Snakes, which is worse, because it does ridiculous damage and he’s STILL got an Ultra with myriad ways to land it. If Guile had his SF2 FK in 4, that would take none of this away from Rufus. Rufus would still be way better, Guile would still be low tier. Now you can almost guarantee Rufus will get big damage nerfs in Super. But even if Guile gets a SF2 FK, plus SH and other speculated buffs, Rufus will still be top tier and Guile will at best be bottom of the middle.

All these Guile apologists posting here, what is your point? What are you really trying to say? It’s a wishlist thread. Don’t try to convince us to eat shit and like the taste.

1613

I understand that you’d like to play Guile in some of the SF2 games. That’s fine, I like those games. But don’t bring these ridiculous shoulds and designed-tos to SF4. Clearly, 100% obviously and clearly, the flash kick was not designed to be like that in SF4. I mean, if it were… then it would do that. And enough with these shoulds, as well. There’s no should in Street Fighter moves, they’re just made however they’re made. If you want to say that you want to see it because that’s just what you want, then whatever, there’s no way to argue with an opinion. But I think you’re too insistent on transplanting previous exact moves into SF4 in ways that almost no other character gets and also uncreative in the ways you think SF4 Guile could be better.

I hope they leave flash kick alone except to make it recover faster and maybe not be considered airborne so soon so that you can fadc out of it at max range.

1614

I was thinking about making a vid when the game comes out and just having two windows of gameplay side by side. In one window you would have the SF4 Guile and in the other you would have the SSF4 Guile. I was going to go through every single normal and special in both games, sync the start up of the moves so that it would start at they same time, then play the footage back to see if anything is faster or has more recovery. Does anyone else think this is a good idea?

1615

Whoa whoa, hold on. I didn’t say I wanted the SF2 FK; that was just to illustrate an example with an extreme. Also the shoulds you quoted are in reference to the future. I accepted that what’s done is done a long time ago.

MY wish is to have a little more protection from crossups and some jumpin normals. YOUR wish is faster recovery. Neither of those is more valid. I’d rather have mine and you’d rather have yours, but hypothetically, you won’t complain if we get both, will you?

As far as being uncreative, after ~30 pages of people saying FK>FADC>Sonic Hurricane, which isn’t even possible with this engine, that hurts my feelings.:sad:

1616

UltraDavid, you’re thinking too hard about this. We just want Flash Kick to be good. Considering how low on the tiers Guile is, that’s not asking for much. Whether or not his other tools are good, and whether or not the change was deliberate, does not account for how bad Guile is overall. We just his specials to be worth using, both of them (not just lp SB).

That’s all, really.

1617

I think that would be a great idea indeed. May also want to compare damage too.

1618

Basically one change or more pointedly opinion is no greater than the other.

We do not even know what the devs intended with Guile.

As unlikely as it is for them throw away years of fk workig as a proper aa in a supposed throwback game; you have a point maybe we just have to play Guile differently, Ultra.

We also have a valid point in saying Guile simply cant functtion like this at a high level. Sure he may playable but he’s the worst he has ever been in any sf game.

Though, if Guile was given the proper tools to play as you suggested truly competively I would have no problems. But, I 'd rather them return Guile to his old glory and then build on that instead of trying to rewrite a classic.

In the end this is just opinion and the developers obviously do whatever they want.

1619

To have a good footies game, similar to ST, the problem is this isnt ST and there is more to consider. Ultras, EXs and Supers are a huge part of SF4, ST (or a worse version really) Guile cant hang in a world that needs these things. He isnt the only character that suffers this but his current SF4 incarnation is one of the most effected by it.

That being said he is close to being an awesome character.

1620

Exactly, this isn’t ST, SF4 has other factors, ultra being a huge one which is crappy in this game. If this was a game where there WAS no ultras or even supers like ST then he’d actually be well off compared to others but alas this is SF4 with ultras and whatnot, which at the moment sucks, his sonic hurricane doesn’t really look promising, since its a charge ultra its still going to lack application in the combo department, you’re not going to be able to FK>FADC>ultra or even just FK>ultra in normal conditions. It’ll only slightly have more use than his current ultra 1 unless they tweaked it.

Just making his ultra more applicable in use alone would greatly improve his game, not saying other tweaks aren’t necessary but improving his ultra game alone would make him alot better.