I think you’re losing track bro, I was the one who said 4-frame startup on flashkick was useful, because guile can’t be safe jumped. Then you tried to expand it to wakeup flashkicks in general.
I’m not saying FK is better or worse than boxer’s headbutt, I was pointing out that you statement of “4 frame startup is NOTHING” is quite unfounded. Only 3 other characters in the game enjoy this luxury (ken akuma ryu)
the headbutt is better simply because its a guaranteed “THERE’S NO ESCAPE” followup. It also has better recovery on landing.
You can safe jump Guile’s FK just like all the other characters. Contrary to popular belief Ryu/Ken/Akuma can also be safe jumped. Gouken’s the only one who can’t be safe jumped
[media=youtube]KA0aLhi-SZM[/media]
EDIT: oh yeah, this doesn’t work in the corner, only midscreen
have you gotten a chance to talk with any of the current playtesters about the guile changes? Do you have any thoughts about the rumors we’ve been hearing?
inquiring minds want to know…
care to explain how this works? I’m seeing it with my eyes but I’m not sure I believe my eyes O_O
EDIT: or if this was already posted in a guile thread somewhere, could you link me? I ahven’t been around for quite a while.
Bullshit. Rog is much easier to bully on wakeup, because you can do sloppy safejumps and crossups and meaty jabs, and meaty cr.mk all day, whereas for Guile you have to crossup to get around fk.
As an anti-air? yes. As a wakup tool? no. Headbutt will often just straight out lose to meaties. The reason Rog is harder to bully than Guile is that if he just blocks, you put him in a block string and there’s not much you can go to from there because of his jabs, but his wakeup options are worse than Guiles.
Except this has nothing to do with headbutt and everything to do with Rog’s other moves, not to mention it completely doesn’t help you in a reversal situation, which is where invul and startup and being able to spend meter to make your reversal safe matter.
I’m saying it’s not universally better. Flash Kick is better reversal, both out of block strings and on wakup. Headbut is a better anti-air and juggles into Ultra with no bar. Does Rog get more use out of headbutt? Absolutely. Are you exagerrating how bad Flash Kick is? Yes.
If you think i’m over exaggerating, then you must have not played many other iterations of sf.
It’s 5000% irrelevant how good flash kick was in previous games. The relevant fact is that in SF4 it’s a usable move that has some significant flaws. This uncreative nonsense about needing the character to be the same as he was in previous games or the same as some other characters in the current game has become so annoying. Dude, the game’s been out a year and a half, you haven’t figured out ways to deal with the new flash kick (some of which are holding back)? You haven’t figured out things you’d like to see that don’t make the character the same as he was before? Come on, already.
That’s a cool setup, Gilley, definitely gonna use that. That said, lots of characters can’t safe jump against Guile because in order to safe jump against characters whose reversal attacks start in 4 or fewer frames you have to have a longer-range air attack that leaves your hittable body at far enough away so that the opponent’s reversal doesn’t actually get to your hittable part until you’ve recovered.
Ultradavid, do you see any Japanese players use the fk outside of combos?
Let me answer that for you, no.
The move out side of ex is useless almost.
Seriously people who dont play guile just dont know.
Of course, fk is not the only problem with guile…but fixing it would be a step in the right direction.
There is his damage problem(a character based on normal usage should do more damage on on his pokes), some of his normals arent up to par(maybe this has been adressed), and minor issue with his booms not all having the same recovery.
Ultra juggling is a pipe dream so im not even going to bother with that.
Yeah, I see it sometimes. I see it sometimes here too. It’s a legit reason for most characters to not jump on him when he has charge and it beats almost every grounded meaty attack on wakeup. Can some characters beat flash kick from some ranges if you don’t have ex meter or beat or whiff through it with meaty attacks? Yes. But come on, let’s not pretend like it’s useless.
Guile needs to get better, but I really don’t think it needs to be done by buffing his flash kick hitbox. I think buffing his normals’ hitboxes, speeds, and damage, making flash kick recover faster, and making all the booms recover like jab would be pretty solid.
Also, it’s true I don’t main Guile, but he’s definitely become one of my couple backups.
why can’t they just make guile’s ultras qcf or qfb or even hcf or hcb motions? i don’t see this being game breaking whatsoever.
Well, we’re certainly glad to have you, UltraDavid.:china:
it looks like he’s making the srk hit at a later frame instead of the 1st frame cause of the distance which would make it a safe jump.
The reason FK should not be stuffable is based on the fact that its a charge move. FK takes time to charge, meaning you have to be immobile to use it. SRK can be used at anytime and has better priority than FK. Does this make sense at all? No.
FK needs to be one of the best AA’s and best reversal in the game, meaning it shouldn’t be stuffable by anything if used to punish a sloppy jump-in.
I also agree with the statment that there should be no charge ultras or supers. It basically renders some useless.
It would be nice if they gave Guile a ex sonic hurricane it would be the same input as sonic hurricane but it only cost two bars it would be slightly smaller than ultra sh and do 4 hits for 300 dmg.
Isn’t the entire point of wanting to play with guile in SF4, as opposed to having charlie or remy again, that guile has done things in past games that we prefer? Guile has things he’s supposed to be able to do, that define him as a character. Sonic boom is his projectile. It’s godlike, but needs charge so he can’t fire them as fast as a shoto. He has flashkick for reversal and anti-air, but that also needs charge, so he won’t be able to FK someone jumping over an SB, so he has a bunch of other solid normals for AA that are less godlike than FK. Basic guile textbook.
I mean, if we should completely forget about all previous versions of guile, why should we have cared about capcom bringing him back? Just call him charlie, or remy, or make up another name for him if he’s going to play different.
Once the game comes out, than we’ll all have to man up with guile, for better or worse. Until then, we’re in a wish list thread, saying what we’d like changed.
its a new game and every returning character in it has tweaks on fundamental basics that force them to achieve mostly-returning objectives in different ways. be annoyed that sf4 guile’s tweaks made him lower tier than he has been in many games, but don’t be annoyed at the idea of tweaks in the first place.
I think people only get annoyed when it’s a tweak for the worse. I don’t see bison players saying head stomp should work like it did in super turbo.
It’s just, Flash kick used be guile’s srk. It was KNOWN for this. Now it’s…not. Then guile players look at ryu or sagat, who have plenty of their old stuff. Tiger is still tiger, shoryu and hado both have the same uses, if not more. Tatsu still goes over fireballs. I’d go as far to say one of the reasons those two are so good in SF4 is because they’ve retained so much of what they’ve always been able to do.
It’s like if capcom suddenly made tiger shots slower than ken’s fireballs, or gief’s SPD is suddenly less damaging than a standard universal throw. It just FEELS wrong, even if those characters were to get other things that made those tweaks acceptable. The characters have an established recipe.
I mean, just take a look at the 3rd strike character threads for SSF4. They’re pretty hype for the new stuff the characters can do, but seem to be especially hype over if they can still do what they used to. does ibuki still have her chains? Can makoto still dizzy like crazy? can dudley still juggle like a clown? If we shouldn’t care what carries over, why should we care about their inclusion? I don’t understand it from a design perspective. Just fanservice I guess? Pure aesthetics?
Quoted for motherfucking TRUTH.
Man, you just summed it up perfectly.
cheers
imo i wouldnt mind if it wasnt one of the best AA’s. seeing as he has a problem with closing the gap with zone heavy characters and FK is his armour breaking move, they should make it move kinda like the first part of hondas but slam. i think it could really help with his corner traps. also if it moved forwards more (like buttsplash) EX FK w fireball invunerability would contribute to making sagat slightly bearable :woot: