3161

The mashy feel of SFIV isn’t going anywhere as long as the reversal windows are large, active frames on ground normals are weak and block strings without jabs suck. They basically toned down damage on uppercuts and the braindead setups for trades as a failsafe. It will just be a lot easier to beat people mashing on reversals now because they won’t get huge damage off of every opportunity like in the old game. Balrog with 3 frame c.LP’s that cover near half the screen length and are viable as anti air will keep the game feeling mashy enough.

Ryu and Sagat players will be forced to learn real normal based combos in order to do damage now. This will help a lot against Ryu especially since he has a 3 frame shoryu that now hits twice with only the first hit being FADCable. Since the first hit only does 50 damage when it gets FADC’d along with the damage reduction on FADC to begin with Ryu will be a lot easier to deal with on the ground without the fear of just losing so much life. This will be huge for people who play characters with low health because it was just too stupid playing a ground game against someone who could stock up to 2 safe chances to take a bunch of your life way and also had better footsies than you did. It will make it a lot easier to just press a jump in situation on Ryu now that he’ll have to time a shoryu perfectly or be put in a trade situation that he can’t ultra off of.

3162

my main problem with sf4 was being mashed out of my cr.lp>cr.mp links and tick throw attempts, particularly against ryu and sagat. i’d say 90% of the good ryu/sagat players i’ve played all randomly mash on block strings. what i mean by this is that sometimes they mash, sometimes they do absolutely nothing and try to counter bait you when you pause your block string. if you’re not quick, they get a free throw/overhead and you’re on the back foot just because you attacked them in the first place. plus the fact that if you’re guile and they’re sitting on two bars of meter and an ultra, you’re fucked. can’t even attempt a combo against these guys, just mash jab and hope for the best. same goes for c.viper and to a lesser extent ken.

why should i be punished with 50% hp loss because i was the guy trying to take the initiative, but i messed up by a frame on a 3 bar connection? yes, i know, don’t take online seriously. but come on, you trying to tell me that wouldn’t get to you after a while?

this is why guile needs an easier link imo. it’s actually more important than the flash kick to my own personal style of guile play. i personally would’ve liked all links across the board to be as lenient as ryu’s. i think it would make for a better game all round.

3163

I like the nerfs to DPs in general. I think now they have a real risk reward associated with them. There was no reason to ever stop mashing shoryu all day because if you happened to hit one, the benefit was huge. One thing that I really hope they fixed (but probably didn’t) was shotos cr.mk. It really did make the shoto ground game really brain dead. It was hard to bait it out, and even harder to whiff punish. It was one of my main sources for complaining as Guile cr.MK got severly nerfed, and cr.MK is completely godlike. For me, I thought it was stupid that any random shoto scrub could just spam out cr.mk all match which was safe, had tons of range, and had way too many benefits on block/hit. For me this made Ryu very unbearable because he only had one goto ground move. his cr.MP was also stupid, as it stuffed nearly everything, but at least it didn’t have range and required some thought to use when playing footsies.

There has only been one source stating the game speed hasn’t changed at all, but other sources say that it has. There are so many conflicting reports now, that I wonder if everyone is playing the same build. Though keep in mind, the guy who said the speed did not change said a lot of other scrubby like things in additon to that.

3164

Random bit of information I have been using. A fellow Guile player at my arcade informed me a month ago that Guile’s j. lp is great for tick throwing. He said it doesn’t show that it has active frames or some shit but it really does and I swear to god it throws off the persons techs like a mother. That was my random information of the day, it seems to have been working for me OFFLINE of course lol.

Also if you haven’t heard this chick playing the Guile theme listen here: [media=youtube]O9SdxrbfcAA"[/media]

God damn I wish Capcom straight took this shit and just put it on the Airport level. Speaking of the airport level I think it would have been dope if when you knocked the wing off the cargo plane it landed on an F-16 in the background causing it to explode and change the look of the level somewhat.

3165

Thanks man. I still have a lot to learn about SF but I’m not new to fighting games or anything… where I “come from,” I’m quite good and very knowledgable (see exhibit A: http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=101565) so I appreciate the people like Gilley who figure out the frame data and whatnot.

After almost 130 pages, I’ve definitely seen some hilarious stuff from you guys. Even the occasional flame wars and the Dee Jay Famine were hilarious.

3166

Last I checked, Fuson has totally dropped the family man. This was during one of the more recent streams and I believe he said he was going with Dudley. When I asked why he said that Guile was too much work. Sad to see such a good player drop him.

3167

Yeah who knows about the game speed. It looked a bit faster to me in some videos but then not in others. I wouldn’t mind a faster game but just like 3S the game has a faster feel to it once people start using their EX moves and stuff like that. Yeah I think it’s stupid that Ryu has a better c.MK than Guile now. I mean it is a different game but I think Guile’s c.MK helped solidify him in footsies over Ryu in the older games. You are right about Ryu…he really doesn’t have to switch it up much from c.MK unless he gets to close range where c.MP will allow him stronger combos when he tries to fish for counter hits. c.MK avoids WAY too many things for the priority it has. There really is no way to beat c.MK on reaction for a lot of characters. You just have to expect he’s going to do it and try and counter hit him out of it or use what usually is a slower move that goes over the hit box of the move which of course is easily baited. If Ryu’s c.MK had a bigger vulnerable hit box it wouldn’t be as big of a deal IMO. Though I’ll take a stupid good c.MK over safe shoryu or trade shoryu into a shit ton of damage. Hopefully Guile got enough and Ryu got enough taken away from him to (even with no visible hit box changes to Guile’s hit boxes so far) make the match more even.

3168

Kind of strange. I am from ATL, which is Tekken country. A lot of our Tekken heads got into SFIV when the game came out (and went to Tekken at the release of Tekken 6). However a lot of them want to start playing SSFIV when it comes out, as many are thrilled with some of the changes to Tekken 6 BR. I’m glad to have another member of the Guile army.

3169

yes, sadly i was responsible for that occurring lol (deejay). never again.

3170

I checked out that link you put up, you deff seem to know what your are talking about when it comes to Tekken. A friend of mine in Tennesee, Cody, he plays a lot of Tekken and he usually comes to play SF4 with us even if its just that or we will give him a little set up to play Tekken on cause some of our other SF4 players dabble in it a little. Last week I asked him to teach me a few tidbits of info here and there cause I said I liked to play Steve Fox in Tekken 4 and maybe I’d pick up Tekken 6. Needless to say after he showed me how you have to correctly guess exactly how you want to get up to not eat another juggle and how he juggled me consistently for half my life I was completely turned off. I know Tekken is suppose to be more “realistic” in that it is like real fighting but jeeeeeezzzzz lol.

It’s going to be hard at first with Guile since everybody else has a year of experience over you but stick with him for these reasons and hear me out:

  1. Guile will make your footsie game superb (he has a great normal across every single button) i.e. st/cr. lp, cr/st mp, cr/st/f hp, cr. mk, st. hk, cr. lk
  2. Guile will force you to mix your game up thus making you a more well developed fighter.
  3. Guile forces you to think! This is what I like most about him, I’m a thinking man and if I’m bored playing with Guile then something is wrong.
  4. He makes your zoning/spacing game top notch so you can go to other characters quite easily.
  5. He looks cool and every single outfit color is dope lololol. And now you can put on and take off shades? Ultimate fuck you taunt in the game. Put your hater blockers on block em out block em out. hahaha

That s about all I can think of right now, you get what you put in with Guile. If you can win with Guile than you can win with anybody.

Yo but did anybody see Guile’s new theme song for SSF4: [media=youtube]82lxT-Lanzo"[/media] Ahahahaha garbage song but tell me it doesn’t fit like crazy. "I got my hater blockers on (block em out), I got my fitted hat low (block em out) I got my fitted hat on my face, while you all up in my space, I don’t want these niggas all up in my grille so I copped me some brand new shades!

3171

I’m sad now :frowning:

3172

Tekken has always kind of been like this, but the ridiculous damage in T6:BR has, after 10 years of playing, just really turned me off. I still like the game but I never feel like playing it. The risk-reward in that game is awful now. You may guess someone is going to throw a low jab to poke you, so you’ll hopkick. If you guess right and launch, there is 65% of their life if you get them to a wall, plus the wakeup game. If you guess wrong and they block, you probably eat a punisher for 10-15% of your life. Not very fair or interesting in my opinion. Even when I’m DOING 75% juggles and crushing people, I’m bored.

I enjoy the system in SF4 so much more. Focus canceling is one of the most enjoyable aspects in a fighter in years, in my opinion. It gives you OPTIONS, options to take a shot at something but keep it safe, options to be defensive or continue offense. The damage also isnt QUITE as bad as Tekken. Sure, good players with some meter can do a lot of damage, and I don’t terribly like Ultras in general, but aside from a few situations, I never end up feeling like damage is excessive in this game.

I’ve been through most of the cast at this point as far as trying people out. I tend to hate charge characters but for some reason his defensive spacing game is really fun. I also play Sakura a lot, who is fun as hell. I win most with Ryu though. What a shock. A character with an SRK and an easy to land ultra who does huge damage.

The biggest problem I’ve encountered is simply making the transition from 3D to 2D. Its such a different mentality, but after a year of casual play I’m ready to get better. I don’t think I’m about to go win Evo or anything, but I’d like to become respectable =)

Thanks all for welcoming me to the Guile Corps.

3173

I think it may be a good time to start theorizing some of Guile’s matchups. I believe Guile vs. Abel will turn in to 6-4 Guile. Why? It appears Abel’s new ultra could possibly replace his old ultra. His U1 was able to go through fireballs, but couldn’t punish Guile from certain distances. His U2 seems to address some of his issues, as it looks like a fast catch grab, and it’s hard to avoid. But if there is a situation, it appears Sonic hurricane is faste enough to totally beat him when he starts the ultra.

I think Akuma may replace Sagat as Guile’s worse matchup :(. Why? It was already hard enough to fight a good Akuma. But now with the alledged speed increae on the game, it appears Akuma’s stuff may be harder to react to.

I believe Sagat will definitely come down to a solid 5-5. Sagat could out zone Guile and harrass him with higher damage and psychic DPs. These are all tools taken away from him, so the matchup should become more managable. Also with sonic hurricane, this should even up the matchup.

Against Ryu, I believe that sonic hurricane will effectively punish whiffed cr.mk.  And there is also no threat of trade ultras, meaning that Ryu has to just outplay you, instead of out guess you.

I believe Dudley will become 5-5. I think they’ll be even on the ground, but it may be hard for Guile to escape Dudley’s pressure game. Plus I think Guile is going to have a hard time keeping Dudley out.

I think Ibuki could possibly become a really bad matchup for Guile. She’s going to be hard to keep out, and she has really good pressure and mixups. I think airthrow will help out in this matchup but not by much.

Makoto will have issues with Guile. In 3s she had a few issues with characters who had fast and good range pokes. Which Guile certainly has. She’ll definitely be an issue once she gets in, but I think Guile can beat her on footsies alone.

What do you guys think?

3174

If you love the spacing aspect of Tekken, the you’ll love Guile in SFIV. I think he’s one of the mores spacing reliant characters in the game. spacing in SF is different than spacing in Tekken as you don’t have special movents like BDC and such. But you’ll use some of your normals that give you space, and you’ll get a rythm of timing and keeping your charges. It makes Guile a really precise character. There are also great mind games in SF too, that I’m sure any Tekken head will enjoy. I’ve been a casual Tekken player for many years (just can’t find myself to play that game competitively), but I do like SF a little more.

3175

Hopefully he’ll still pop his head in to school us from time. I can’t see him dropping Guile entirely.

All I know is Dee Jay is gonna get his ass KICKED.

3176

I think Guile will still convincingly lose to C.Viper. She basically didn’t let him throw booms unless he was at closer ranges (and still had ways to beat them even then) and his normals really weren’t that huge of an issue for her since all she needed was one high damage high stun combo to ruin him. Her damage output was just too big compared to him once she got in. Sonic Hurricane IMO would come closer to making the match even but there’s just too much about Guile that Viper generally shuts out. If she knocks him down he’s super free too.

Makoto so far looks like the only of the 3S characters that will be somewhat succeptible to fireball games. It’s obvious that Dudley and Ibuki will have many ways to negate fireballs. Ibuki can use her air kunais to hover in the air over projectiles just like Akuma, her df+MK command slide works exactly like Rose’s from the looks of things and apparently her EX neckbreaker slide special goes under projectiles as well. Her EX penguin kick/hien probably will be solid against fireballs too. Everyone already knows why Dudley will rape fireballs so yeah. Though Dudley isn’t exactly the fastest character in the game and his normals probably won’t be as rock solid overall as Rog’s so Guile should be able to footsie him I think.

Ryu and Sagat sound pretty even at this point since they basically got stuff taken away and nothing in return. I mean Sagat just has to spend one EX meter to bring his uppercut damage back to the glory days but if that’s angry scar does then all it will do is just make it blinding obvious that he wants to hit you with an upppercut. So people are just going to be twice as aware of her him trying to use an uppercut and it will cost him meter to do it. Trade, f+HK to Ultra only works on jump attacks timed too early instead of all so that isn’t helping Sagat much either in the damage department. He’ll still get respectable damage for a trade with f+HK off any trade but not the completely game changing bullshit he had before.

3177

Yeah I hear ya, I came from tekken as well (played since tekken Tag), I didn’t like the whole concept of being punished for 50-60% of my health for doing a POKE (that does probably maybe a pixel of damage) as a result of the random crush system and universal low parry (I mained xiaoyu and hwoarang so i got crushed A LOT from random uppercuts/hopkicks, SS to random hopkick, crushing launcher/juggle starters), the game heavily favoured turtling, moreso than SF4, it was so retarded that launchers like hopkick was only jab punishable for most characters the payoff relative to the risk was just retarded, it got to the point where I just turtle - backdash, SS and wait for a whiff and launch or block then punish or just random guess a low poke and throw a random hopkick (which is akin to mashing DP in block strings). Tekken 6 made it even more turtle friendly and rewarding for random hopkicks by introducing the stupid bound system, not only can you deal a 50-60% juggle from a launcher, you can easily carry them to the wall and easily put them in a compromising position with wall shenanigans.

Yeah I’ve read pretty much every single bit of info regarding guile and other characters i’ve taken up too and taken it onboard when playing matches, most of it is good, occasionally you get the random guy that complains about something being OP.

I think the matchup personally would favour dudley maybe a 6-4? I think guile will have a hard time to keep him out since he may be able to duck through fireballs, not sure about the footsies, guiles got alright pokes but i still think dudley’s got the edge with his pokes.

3178

Does anyone know the the Korean vids were based on the final version? I didn’t see any of them pick Hakan.

3179

i have an interesting thing to add about the new ultra’s, though this is just theory and i don’t know for sure.
i just got out of watching this: [media=youtube]tZKJPVS1OiQ[/media]
at the end, they test bison’s new ultra. if he doesn’t cross up, ken can beat his ultra with a shoryuken. what i’m thinking is…do you think guile will have enough time to air throw?

anyways, due to improvements, nerfs ect, this is what i think of the new matches:
zangief: 6-4 guile. yup, i’m calling it. health nerf, lariat nerf, plus guile’s new ultra makes me think this is now in guile’s favour.
rufus: 6-4. ex snake strike does less damage. sonic hurricane for punishes. zone…guile now wins imo. (of course due to his huge come back potential with ultra’s, i can see the argument for 5-5 or even 4-6).
balrog: 6-4. now he can’t take so many risks with his jumps, due to sonic hurricane. add to this the fact he has no buffs and we see that guile now wins this one.
vega: 6-4. depends on how good that new version of ultra 1 is.
sakura:6-4. yes she has a new cross up, but her problem was always making it to guile in the first place.
fei long: 6-4
gouken: 6-4
bison: (will be a 6-4 in everyone else’s eyes other than mine, lol)
cammy: 6-4
dan: 6-4, abel: 5-5 (i personally think 4-6 but everyone else says 5-5), seth: 5-5, ken: 5-5, blanka:5-5 (maybe 6-4 guile as hurricane can probably punish blanka balls)
honda: this is a tricky one. i get the feeling that honda’s 720 ultra is going to help him big time. however, because guile can zone and now has a reliable ultra (which can punish honda easily) i’m going with 5-5
dhalsim: 5-5, rose: 5-5, gen: 5-5
sagat: i still have a bad feeling it’s going to still be 3-7. like i said with the sakura matchup, guile’s problem is getting to sagat. he’ll still be able to out zone guile for fun.
ryu: depends on if his combos have taken a damage nerf as much as his ultra setups have. i’m calling 4-6 (at the moment i think it’s 3-7)
akuma: 4-6. now guile can reliably punish any loose combo’s/demon flips
c.viper: 4-6 (could argue 3-7)
chun: 4-6 (possibly 3-7 depending on how good that ultra really is)
el fuerte: 4-6

as for the rest (these are just predictions and i’m obviously going to be way wrong about a couple of them):

deejay:5-5, guy: 6-4, cody:6-4, hakan:5-5, adon: 5-5, t hawk: 5-5, juri and ibuki 4-6 (possibly both 3-7), makoto 4-6, dudley (lets hope he can be zoned or this is 3-7)

so that would leave guile with:

6-4: 12 characters
5-5: 12
4-6: 8
3-7: 2

in the grand scheme of things, i think that’s definitely an improvement on where he is at the moment.

3180

Too much theory-crafting, but with new ultra 2 at least Guile has a reason to focus attack other than just to advance.
A pretty safe and pretty fast ultra and doing some chip damage? Heck, why not?

All it does is bring more options for Guile to pressure opponents in the corner. Sadly it still doesn’t help him when he gets knocked down though. :frowning: