Yeah, more damage off of ex palm mid screen for more meter and more damage off of ex palm in corner. I feel like when I play in their face and when I want to zone near full screen I’m better off with denjin since I’m either going for stun or I can catch them with a high fireball but sometimes I play mid range and I like the damage off of a punish. I’ve been experimenting with resets so I’ve been using both heavilly, I think Gouken as the best set of ultras in the game as both are really good and have different utility.
That’s funny because I think his Ultras are kinda the same thing and he’s a worse character for it.
Denjin Hadoken is useful in most of the same situations as Shin Shoryuken. You trade like 30 damage for a bit of stun. Neither of them really give him a solid setup timing afterwards. Shin Shoryuken is useful utility in some match-ups and some people prefer it because there’s more damage to be had. But they are effectively the same Ultra.
I mean sure, it could be worse, he could have Viper’s problem where one of the Ultras is just play worthless, but yeah… the only reason they’re both good is because they’re both useful in most of the same situations.
There’s tons of set ups after landing Ultra (both).
U1 can vary bc full animation only gives you the high/late window, but other than that you can get everything if you position it correctly on Muti-Hit U1 Gouken lands earlier to give you more time. And U2 scenarios will vary b/c you will have more or less time depending on speed, # of hits, and where Denjin hit the opponent in relation to Goukens position (so you’ll have to be a little saavy here).
There are a few exceptions to the rule, but not many.
Multi-hit U1 is actually pretty good for setup timing so you won’t get an argument from me there. But animation U1 and U2 both lack any sort of “easy” safejump afterwards. I think on U2 there are some anti-reversal setups for specific characters like the the taunt setup (backthrow->MP->u2, dash forward, taunt, MP demon flip divekick).
But even if I’m just flat out wrong and there’s a safejump I’ve never heard of before (which would be great btw… if I’m wrong, please tell me, lol) that doesn’t change my core stance that Gouken’s ultras have too much overlap and he’d be better off with one or the other and a more utility oriented ultra 2.
on W ultra you can buffer U1 behind U2 since u2 starts up faster you can have U1 in the on deck circle in case U2 is unable to come out due to blockstun , hitstun, or other.
Can you please be a bit more specific about that?
I hear you. You can get safe jump set ups off of either one. I think you are correct by that it’s not “easy” though, but I can get the one that covers dwu and standard wake up about 90% of the time.
Depending on what the connection is, I don’t mind going into online training mode and connecting my mic so I can walk you through what I do.
I’ve never used normals or taunts as the que b/c it always looked crazy AF to me and it screamed “incoming set up”, so if you are running a set then people get hip to what normals you throw out etc. Not saying don’t use them, but the timing that I use to cover all whiffing normals doesn’t seem to work too well. Plus with the various wake up frames for diff characters, you won’t have a 1 size fits all timing anyway.
After full animation U1- you only get high/stuff set ups and if they DWU it turns into a safe jump.
After All U2- you can get the traditonal dive kick and j. mk set ups, and you can also get the late/dwu safe jump timing.
I don’t seem to have too much trouble with it, but it’s definitely not easy when you first start trying it. You posted a video a while back that I commented on and I told you that you keep trying it you are about to discover something… lol. So I’m pretty sure you have a good idea of what to do, you just need that little nudge.
I’m on the East Coast… so I’m unsure of what our connection would be… other than that, I’ll have to make a video with some voice commentary or notes.
U2 normally isnt’ a problem b/c as they are hitting the wall Gouken can get to walk forward and position himself in most cases, and then you have the recovery period from when they hit the ground and the hkd starts.
BTW All the setups I talk about with beating DWU are all ‘anti-reversal for standard wake, and safe/anti reversal for dwu’.
There are some safe anti revesal resets and anti air too…
If it comes down to me having to do a quick video… give me a couple of characters and I’ll knock it out. With EX Yun, Rose, Deejay, Guy, and maybe 1 or 2 more have to be altered).
There are three ways Gouken combos into his Ultras: EX Palm and back throw cover 99% of scenarios, but you can also EX Tatsu FADC. In the corner, U1 and U2 have the same combo setup. You can add more stuff between EX Palm and U2 (since U2 juggles after palm) but that mostly just makes up for the damage you lose by not choosing U1 in this scenario instead. You can set things up so you don’t actually lose that much damage with an optimized combo; you can some stun, lose a bit of damage. But it doesn’t matter which Ultra you picked here really, because you land it the same way regardless. The change of Ultra doesn’t really change your strategy in the corner, although it might change what stuff you go for afterwards.
As for mid-screen EX Palm, the benefit of U2 is that you only need the 1 bar from EX Palm to land your full animation Ultra. You can get the “non animation” U1 for 1 meter though and the damage is around the same as a level 2 U2. If you FADC (3 bar), you can get full animation. So, it’s more expensive, but ultimately strategically nothing changes between U1 or U2.
U2 vs U1 is almost entirely a cost and damage/stun consideration. U2 is great against characters with low stun. U1 is great against a couple of characters that kinda walk into U1 (Balrog, Abel, maybe Fei). But to be honest, your Ultra choice doesn’t matter very much. You can pick any ultra in any match-up (maybe U1 is mandatory for Rog) and be fine.
U2 can be used to go through fireballs, but it seems worse at that than similar Ultras. Still, it’s something you can do with it.
I think we play on different platforms, so I don’t think we can go online. I just moved to Sweden (so I haven’t been here much) and play on PC.
The characters you mentioned are great. Would also like to see what you do against Juri (ex pinwheel catches all my setups) and Makoto. Thanks.
I think a Makoto and Juri might have been the other 2. I know ex pinwheel is active for forever, I always try to land behind that but it often gets clipped bc it hits on both sides.
Makoto i have stuff that it’s anti reversal for her, I just need to confirm if it beats standard and normal dwu. It’s been a minute for her.
I think the other one was Gief and his lariat can be hard and it trades a lot. There’s room to get him clean, but it’s not a very big window.
I will lab it up and see it I get anything diff., to be sure.
Akuma is another one, even though he has a 3 frame reversal the way his hit box shifts you can treat it like a 4 framer if you aim for his center. His dp will move him forward and his hit box goes so far out that it whiffs etc.
I’m on 360, I just got a PS4 but I may migrate to PC or atleast get another Mac and run parallels for SF. I actually have the PC version of SF but I dont like running windows on the same CPU that I use for production etc.
I will update as soon as I can…
Edit: So Juri does have a weak spot with pin wheel. I just need to confirm how it works vs. being face down and on her back.
This is anti reversal and works on standard or delayed wake up.
And here’s something else… but that’s not for DWU… you’d want to bait something if they did DWU.
Pretty cool, thanks!
Juri is one of the harder ones, and unless you land safe and make her whiff… she’ll just reset b/c she’s airborne during pin wheel… but she loses EX meter and takes a hit for trying it.
I know frames 1-7 are invincible on her pin wheel so she needs to be hit betwen frame 8 and before the second hit can hit/trade with Gouken.
Yeah, now it makes sense on a lot of stuffs you say. I usually use ultra 1 for maybe 5 characters of the 44. Those 5 characters can go through fireball, so you can’t ultra 2 against them (Balrog, Abel, Deejay, Dudley, Zangief for ultra 1). I’ll maybe use ultra 1 against chunlee depending on which ultra he chooses and how experience he is. But mostly ultra 2 because I can punish something against someone or I can AA with fireball or I can do a normal into palm in the corner into ultra 2 as well as ex palm into ultra. So yeah you’ll trade stun for damage, but in some match ups it’s the way to go
along the same lines gief would fall too I think, with regards to timing and the trades , I was going to mention this eaerlier…since the discussion moved that way anyways…always felt gief was hardest now in comparison I can see why hes up there with MAk and Juri as you’ve mentioned
this is definitely advanced knockdown talk here…
Hardest to stuff on wakeup I think is guys ex tatsu, Ive only beat it clean a few times and not with dj mk but dive kick.
What beats more on wakeup I wonder dj mk or dive kicks?
Jump in on Juris wake and if you use j hk you can get traditional set ups and if she does ex pinwheel you land on the other side. Since it has a 7 frame start up you can do it a tad late and she can only teleport out, but you can is that with st hk.