Cammy Match-Up Discussion: Ken

Street Fighter V Cammy
21

This seriously put me on tilt today. I’ve seen hits whiff through models but this is just insane. My fist is literally in Ken’s ass but there is no hurt box to hit yet Ken’s hit box comes out multiple times below his hurt box and allows for a full 264 damage combo on hit. The worst part is because it becomes inactive and then active it’s super hard to crush counter with st hk. The only thing that seems to work is her CS but it will whiff sometimes too as they lunge forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI_oEhwOChY

When you compare this to his normal jump mk the hurt box is further down and below the hit box, which begs the question why would you ever jump in with anything but tatsu and why the fuck did capcom make his air tatsu like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohunoTx7huQ

I just don’t get why they’d make his hurt box so far from his actual 3D model when he does air tatsu. It’s seriously half of his body and extends beyond his head.

22

pr rog complained about that a few weeks ago.

then the ken army appeared and told pr rog it was his fault for mistiming his AA, since balrog’s AA button’s active frames end earlier than the animation would suggest. (he was using the hitbox/hurtbox viewer to review his match).

so basically get ready for 5 years of complaining about this.

23

Be sure to not frame trap with st.mp as your starter too much. His lk tatsu is 3 frames and has a medium button priority. This causes a trade that’s advantageous to him.

Instead use Cr.mp then Cr.lp. u can link into st.hp

I mean you can always block too but with Cr.mp you get better pressure

24

I don’t remember that button priority is also on specials.

Anyways, I was the whole time not off with my AA timing,what the hell is this for a retarded hurtbox? Why didn’t they make this move invincible by default,that would have made more sense than this hurtbox!

25

Cipher I literally just went in on this on Reddit on how they either need to make it a lower invincible move with the equal balances of invincible moves or change it so it’s not lower body invincible. You can read it here https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetFighter/comments/516zyk/chris_t_defeats_go1_at_first_attack_shoutouts_to/ but I know you hate text walls.

26

There is no button priority on specials. Special trades with mediums, lights, heavies whatever. Button priority is only for standing/crouching normals.

27

@SunTzu81
It’s not textwalls per se, it’s big bricks.
I would have read more of your stuff closely,if you would organise your bricks better.Some empty line from time to time makes it much more comfortable to read.
Like you got in one reply: You need to use double enter to space your sentences, man…

I read it all and you’re right. this isn’t a simple hurtbox =/= animation thing, this is bullshit on the higher level. The move is not broken,but in it’s current state there is only one way to make sure you AA Ken and thats the DP. Sad I love CC st.Hk as anti-air.

So I was right. This basicly means Necro was wrong again, this means he will tell me now that I stalk him,what leads to me liking Cammy…
Fuck that.

So basicly the worst thing that can happen, you start a frametrap with st.mp and you will trade with the lk Tatsu,if you do st.lp, what still means you will beat it with cr.lp and get a st.hp afterwards.
Sounds ok.

28

Yeah I didn’t know on Reddit you have to hit enter twice to just make one line space. I was making paragraphs normally but it just pushes them together once you post.

Sadly her DP has problems with Ken’s tatsu too as I’ve had it whiff. St hk works but you have to have fast reactions to his jump in. Trying to CC it is near impossible with it’s short activations. They just need to extend it down just a little bit to cover his butt then it will be cool. The question then though is what is the benefit of the air tatsu? I think they meant for it to lunge Ken forward like it did in SF4 to get those late cross ups but found it too strong, so they moved it back, but then they were like it has to have something to make it worth wild so they removed the lower hit box entirely but didn’t add any disadvantage if blocked.

Yeah specials trade, same with air to airs. Grabs and command grabs are the weird ones, but I believe command grabs win out against grabs if done on the same frame.

29

Hm. I swear I remember reading on here that his lk tatsu has that priority. Anyway, my bad.

30

For you my man. Taking from the guide.

"Trading attacks in SFV works differently than in SFIV. If two grounded non-specialmovesclash (more precisely, if both characters’ activehitboxes collide with each other’s hurtboxes on the same frame), the player using the higher-strength button wins the exchange and is rewarded with a clean counter-hit. So, if Ryu’s standing hitbox connects with Ken’s hurtbox while (on the same frame) Ken’s standing hitbox connects with Ryu’s hurtbox, Ryu will be counter-hit (and in this case, Crush-Countered). It’s just as if Ryu was interrupted during his attack’s startup, even though his standing was active and well-aimed. If Ryu used standing instead in this scenario (or if Ken used standing /), both characters would be put into hitstun since their attack strengths are equal. An actual trade occurs.

Trade priority is: Throw > Heavy > Medium > Light

This altered system mechanic has several consequences for gameplay, coming from SFIV:

You can no longer trade your heavy attack with a light attack in order to recover before your opponent’s longer hitstun and follow up with a combo. This type of “trading up” situation was common in SFIV, but in the same situation now, you counter-hit your foe cleanly.

Medium- and heavy-strength frame trap attacks are more attractive than quicker, weaker frame-trapping lights because you essentially get an extra frame to counter-hit someone who is retaliating with light attacks. They can’t just call a trade a draw, and they must rely on their speed advantage. You wipe this out if you use medium-strength frame traps with only three- or four-frame gaps.

With certain characters, there is more of a rock/paper/scissors game when playing footsies when you’re taking trade priority into account. For instance, you may be more reluctant in challenging Chun-Li’s hop kick with your standing or pokes, unless your goal is to interrupt her before her first active frame.

This priority system applies to grounded normals and grounded unique attacks. It doesn’t apply to jumping attacks, nor does it apply to special moves. If a special move or jumping attack is involved in a trade scenario, they will simply trade as normal, with both characters entering hitstun. Note finally that throws will win over strikes if they clash on the same frame. "

31

THIS!!! Write in the future like this! Much better.

32

Hey SunTzu, I wasnt sure if I should have replied on reddit or on srk, but here goes anyways. Your main issue with kens air tatsu having “lower body invincibility” is a weird way to describe a jump attack since this is how airborne attacks traditionally looked like in sf4. As you are aware, SF5 jump attacks are quite standardized and have added hurtboxes between the waist/knees area that didnt exist in SF4. So perhaps the devs just forgot to standardize kens hurtbox? I dont think so, considering there are several examples where characters can manipulate their hurtbox to make traditional anti-airs whiff while still sticking out an active hitbox during or after the “hurtbox manipulation” to win the exchange.

- Ryu’s j.lk
This move does not have the standardized sf5 leg hurtbox and plays by its own rules. Classic example of hurtbox manipulation plus sticking out a dominating hitbox at the same time. This move should be in mahvel baybee

- Everyones air throws
Whiffing air throws causes your character to remove that standardized sf5 leg hurtbox
source https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2wmoyDOElA

- Gief j.lp, Alex j.hp, Cammy j.mp
Not as good as Ryu’s j.lk, but these kinds of attacks end up with strong hitboxes on the last active frame. You also have moves like Alex’s j.hk which removes the leg hurtbox but has a huge horizontal hurtbox just before it goes active (kind of how everyone extends a hurtbox before their cr.mk’s). Then theres downward moves like fang’ j.mk who’s hitbox extends below the SF5 standardized leg hurtbox. It doesnt have that 1f hurtbox before it goes active, so it can be really difficult to AA the leg part of the hurtbox.

But all in all, I think what makes Ken’s air tatsu so effective is that it he has several of these properties together. You have the air trajectory change, the sf5 leg hurtbox removed, and a fairly dominating hitbox on the way down with a hurtbox that appears and disappears as the hitbox becomes active. Each of those aspects alone are quite weak: hitbox wise, its no ryu’s j.lk. The air trajectory change is minimal. The leg hurtbox removal isnt unique. But if you put all of them together, you make for a very, very annoying move to deal with. Combined with the threat of a random EX dive kick, the only move im thinking of when Ken jumps is MK cannon spike.

33

@Sunghoon Thanks for taking the time, but I’ve beaten this horse to death. I’ll try to argue your points as I do not agree.

This isn’t SF4, so it’s a bad way to start an argument about SFV with “hey man your point in invalid because it was in SF4”. This isn’t SF4, so please keep it to SFV so we can argue valid points.

  1. Ryu jumping lk definitely has a standardized red hurtbox on his foot just like every other normal button jump in. It has an extended hit box also. Extended hit boxes are not an issue in this game and make sense. This goes for all the jumping attacks you mentioned. People aren’t whiffing through Ryu’s st lk, they are being beat out by the extended hit box. This is much different than the air tatsu. To clarify the reason why I don’t compare this to air tatsu and why Ryu jp lk is ok is because objects collide as they should. The attack is coming towards you and they both hit. This does not happen with air tatsu.

  2. Air throws retract hurt boxes for obvious reasons (they’d lose to all jump attacks unless the range increased to look stupid fake), however they also have zero follow up potential, can only grab a person in the air, and only have 2 active frames (they also do not retract over the torso like kens air tatsu, but I’ll explain more on that later). To use this argument to justify that air tatsu having the same no lower hit box is normal is pushing it. These are two totally different type of attacks. Even if you could use this as a justification you’d have to explain why an air grab can only grab in the air yet air tatsu can hit in the air, on the ground and follow up on hit. Where’s the trade off? If there isn’t one then this move is unique and unbalanced compared to all other characters in the game.

  3. I’m not sure what hitbox viewer you are looking at but the amount of lower body hurt box removal is unique, especially with a move with no recovery on block. His hurt box doesn’t cover 50% of his model through the majority of his downward arc. There is no other move in the game that has this much lower hurt box removed that is not considered lower, upper or fully invincible. Hatson spent 10 hours trying to find a model with that little amount of coverage and couldn’t find it. Again something else that makes this move unique and unbalanced compared to other characters in the game.

  4. In my opinion it is ok to drop his leg hit box to allow for it to be different than a normal jump in, but you can’t have it not covering his torso (limbs whiffing ok, torso whiffing is a hell no). That’s not usual or standard in the game. No other character not even the air grabs retract that far and that is why this move looks stupid when it whiffs. It doesn’t collide as models should. So yes allow for the legs hurt boxes to be removed, not the body, and adjust it so it covers his torso even if his legs come up. If they think his hurt box should be that high on his model adjust the animation so his body is higher and legs lower. It just needs to be visually adjusted to match is my main gripe. Not massively just a little bit.

So to conclude my complaint isn’t that the move is lower body invincible or should or should not be called lower body invincible. It’s that it’s given the equivalent of extreme lower body invincibility in the game with zero draw back (nothing you argued shows that it’s normal in the game to have no leg hurtboxes on a jump in attack), so I’m saying if they want to have it so ken’s legs aren’t hit-able either balance it to be treated like all other half body invincibility moves or adjust the hurtbox/animation to better represent the attack so it doesn’t look like two objects are travelling through each other. This will solve the issue. I’d even say hell make it fully invincible but make it -12 on block. So if you do anti air you get hit, but if you don’t they get punished. Wouldn’t this sort of be like Ryu’s parry. If you jump in and he parries you get punished, but if you don’t and it whiffs Ryu gets punished. It adds a guessing game with equal amounts of risk and reward. Currently that air tatsu is all reward.

34

hm, i totally forgot about the projectile invulnerability red hurtbox on ryus j.lk. As for hitboxes, im using dantarions and was looking at the 2nd rotation of air HK tatsu http://watissf.dantarion.com/sf5/boxdox/#v1_3/A36-AIR_TATSUMAKI_H-19

Anyways, if thats the case shouldnt we categorize the tatsu as an extreme jumpin hitbox? If the tatsu was used slightly closer, there is a 10 frame gap between the 2 hits where you might have the chance to be able to traditionally AA him out of tatsu. At further ranges where his extended hitbox coming into play, is that not the same as Nash jumping in at max range with j.LK or Necalli with his j.LK? At max range, if you try to uppercut nashs j.lk, you will whiff. Their extended hitboxes may not be positioned exactly the same as Kens tatsu, but they serve almost the same purpose.

edit: timing on the j.lk’s is almost like an empty jump. If you j.lk at the lowest point possible, nash will immediately enter his 4 grounded landing frames and there will be no limb to punish.

35

I’m not sure what your point is, but I don’t wish to waste anymore time on this. I can only hope Capcom will look into his air tatsu and after that Chris T win which a lot of people saw I’m sure they are.

36

is there finally justice? https://twitter.com/Sajam/status/805180762513211392