I think Cammy is very good in this game to, they made all her special moves viable. Quickspk and hooliganC are a lot more viable in way more situations.I have this nasty little habit of abusing tricking people with quick spin knuckle (vskill) that I need to break, I use it to much lol. I feel like they made her more than just a dive kick vortex character now. But after careful consideration I changed my mind on the cammy matchup v birdie because
She has to work x2, risk more dmg to get dmg vs him.
Heven can quickly armour through alot she has if not ready for it.
He doesn’t have to take as much risk vs you coming in
He gets a lot of dmg off you compared to mediocre dmg on him at best.
What makes you think she beats birdie? Just wondering because I thought so at first to. Then changed my mind when realized how much she has to work to beat birdie considering how less he has to work to beat Cammy. Your right about the kazunoko statement though he doesn’t really use cammy such as kbrad poongko cobelcog do. But the video showed how birdie can come back like that with cammys low health and stun because birdie is so damagining. But kaz should of definitely played more patiently when he lost the first round realizing birdie came back at almost a dime of health like that.
You guys can just search Ciphers name on CFN to check his matches. He plays as blitzkrieg. He only has a few against Birdie though with the most recent being in casuals. The latest one just shows exactly what we’ve all been saying so I’m not sure where he is getting his 6-4 from unless he is bodying all the birdies at locals?
someone mentioned poongko, but poognko’s match vs birdie at FR (?) was against a birdie who basically didn’t use his normals at all and was from a poongko who was 24/7 spamming dps and having all of them hit. i don’t think it was indicative of the matchup.
I mainly play Battlelounge and Casuals, I retired from Rankeds after I reached Gold, just like I retired from rankings in SFIV after I reached 3000PP on PC(my mainplattform)
Since I play Battlelounges the most, you should check this the most. But I guess the matches are gone,after I played with some friends. I play with a lot newbies too to help them.
Anyways, I take notes since the early betas, treating him like Chun in IV is so far the most and less risky tactic I found and also the most effective.
I don’t care what others think about the MU’s, I had people who came to me in SFIV and tried to sell me Chun and Juri are counterpicks against Cammy. And I it was in the end lack of experience.
Do I think it’s different now? No.
I give this some more time, after one month you can’t tell how stable everything is, new tech found and everything can be turned again.
I just throw my opinion in thats it.
i believe cipher that he isn’t struggling against birdies, i just think he’s kind of misinterpreting why. “whiff punishing” on its own doesn’t really decide how a matchup goes, birdie isn’t dhalsim with limbs you can play whack-a-mole with. the stuff he says still makes me think that he’s just better at footsies than the birdies he’s playing against, not that the matchup is actually in her favor.
I play Birdies from Bronce to Ultra Gold, what hops into my lobby or the MM gives me, is what I play.
MU’s are based on even player skill. Do you realy think I would make this stupid beginner mistake?
I know we won’t agree.
Thats why I don’t care much about discussing much, I don’t want the same shit that happend some months ago.
You can either play the MU on paper or play it in a match, thats 2 different things, because there’re a lot of factors that can change the outcome by a lot.
Since this is a forum to discuss, we play it on paper.
I feel like most the birdies I play I either know the match-up better than them or I am the better player. I actually have an easier time in the birdie and bison match-ups lol, but yea it does feel difficult when they do the correct things. I can kind of see it from ciphers point of view. I’ve beaten probably 90% of the birdies I’ve played online, but I can see how it could be a bad match-up.
The term “on paper” only applies when there is no evidence to suggest otherwise (meaning it can’t or hasn’t happened yet. ie “On paper, Muhammad Ali beats Mike Tyson because of his speed and ability to take minimal damage in his fights.” However, ideas of paper do not have priority over experience and evidence. If Ali and Tyson had actually fought in real life, and Tyson smoked Ali in 1 minute…what is on paper doesn’t matter.
Yes, it is early in the game as you said earlier, and things could come up to make the match slightly more even or even. We have to base the match-up on what we are seeing, and what we’ve seen is every good Cammy, whether risky like Kazonoko or grounded/solid like Cobelcog, struggle against Birdie. From intermediate to advanced to pro, it is individually thought and commutatively agreed upon that Cammy struggles vs Birdie. I came up with Birdie being hard for Cammy on my own, by playing the match…only to discover later that others have trouble. I made my own opinion.
I do think there is something that we can do differently to close this match out. But until someone discovers it, it’s theory.
All that said, whether you think it is a 5/5, 6/4, 4/6 or -1/11…let’s get back to discussing the match-up. And I’ve done a ton of thinking about this match today.
MATCH-UP DISCUSSION:
The goal is to get Birdie into the corner. He has bad wake-up. He doesn’t do well with you in his face. This is a match where corner carry trumps damage. However, that’s the problem we run into. Birdie’s smidge of extra health almost always leaves Birdie with just enough life to make the comeback he needs. So do you tack on the 20 damage at the end of each combo and take the slower approach to the corner, or do you go for the corner as soon as possible?
Next part comes with Cammy’s Critical Art. Critical Art, just like Cody in SFIV, resets the screen. If Cammy does critical art, she loses the corner position. So, if we get critical art, unless it’s going to kill, it’s almost better off to save it despite the fact that it adds on a lot of damage.
Now that you’ve done all the damage you’ve done, Birdie now has a full stick of butter and V-Gauge at it’s max. Do we let Birdie out of the corner to force him to be wasteful, or do we commit and attempt to finish…I can tell you that many rounds have been lost when I tried to close it out. It takes one button or one EX Bull to take off 600 of Cammy’s life at that point in the match. And this has been where I’ve truly been thinking about the match. At this point, I think it’s where you force Birdie to make the move. We find the position to keep Birdie in place and we hold our ground. From there, Birdie has to go for a risk: EX Dolphin Dive, EX Bullhead/Bullhorn, etc. If he does this, well, combo into CA is gone for a while. Forcing Birdie to use V-Reversal in the corner is not as imperative as making Birdie give up meter, IMO.
Corner Carry vs Raw Damage - Which is better?
Keeping the Corner vs Raw Damage - Which is better?
Safe Play/Forcing Situations vs Closing Out the Round - Which is better?
Things Cammy Needs to Win this Match:
On point shimmy (knowing how to shimmy vs better throw ranges are important, and even more so with Birdie)
Not to over commit (it’s what gets you KOed in the end)
Have proper neutral game spacing, and knowing the buttons of both characters
Absolutely positively knowing the frame data and punishes.
…And most importantly…be willing to take the command grab/blocking over eating a combo or CC combo. The command grab does crazy damage (LP is 180 damage, EX is 220 damage…most Birdie’s aren’t going to go for HP Killing Head unless it’s off a jump in via delay which is 200 damage). That averaged 200 damage possibility is nothing compared to the damage Birdie is going to land on you trying to dash away, jump away, or off of a blocked DP. Even Bull Revenger, his dolphin dive, (170 damage to 200 damage depending on the strength or meter) is nothing compared to the easy access Birdie has to 300-500 damage combos. Any CC combo Birdie lands will do 300 or more. Any CC combo Birdie lands with VT will do close to 400 or more…and if he has CA…500 to 600. In other words, Birdie would have to EX command grab you 3 times to do more damage than Birdie’s highest damaging CC combo off st. HK.
Insert V-Reversal…if you are going to do anything on wake-up besides block, it’s V-Reversal. Yes, you’ve lost V-Trigger, which can give him a possible moment in your hesitation to go for a donut or something…but at least you didn’t lose the round.
Played against a Birdie a bunch last night. About mid-set are started testing a few different approaches on the character.
Just an example of one of the matches:
I did find that not over extending myself in the corner paid off more times than not, the opposite of trying to close out the round. I took a page out of my Cody book and chilled on my life lead a lot while his back was still to the wall. You’ll see in the first round that I tried to go in too hard about ended up paying the price.
Once he gets V-Trigger and CA, you kinda need to take a step back and force him to spend something. Holding the corner, in that st. MP spacing for him, at the risk of giving him that big comeback option is just greedy. You are better off just controlling that 1/4 to 1/3 screen spacing his back to the wall. If he over extends himself, you put him back in the corner anyway.
Even if he throws an EX Dolphin Dive, and catches you, he lost Combo into V-Trigger Into Critical Art. If he goes for a random EX Bullhead into V-Trigger…again, the option is gone. I’m noticing Birdie players love to go for the good old empty jump EX Move, so that’s something to consider as well. Something to remember and not panic about, if he does EX Dolphin Dive, he’s 1 bar further from CA.
There are just so many factors in this match that comes down to purely fighting the player and not the character. There’s no ideal spacing or perfect button vs Birdie. It really comes down to what they are doing and how you can counter it.
I’m gonna make a run for Platinum Rank now that I started playing ranked again, so I’ll get back to this match at some point after that.
I play birdie and i could use some xp in this match up. I get the general idea. But idk if its familiarity or i just suck vs i usually can ran over lol. My cfn is bdizzlez and im in the us if anyone wants to help me out
@TrenchCoatJones It’s much harder for him to keep Cammy out then it is for us to get in on him. Playing neutral with him is just buying your time/baiting a chance to get in so you shouldn’t be trying to out poke him so to speak. Once you get in you win with your faster light strings and grab setups where he has to guess right. The main thing to keep in mind in neutral is birdies specials and armor moves are slow and lunge forward a lot. This makes neutral jump really good against him to punish. Just stand at the range he wants to do shoulder or dolphin dive and neutral jump for a good punish. At mid to close range his st mp is you’re only real concern as it’s fast and leads into huge damage. Because of this you want to be careful about pushing buttons in that range. Also be aware if you see him whiff punches but not use them again. That means he is charging bull horn and is waiting for a dive kick so don’t fall for it. Pick your times to jump or dive kick in based upon their use of normals in the neutral. It takes practice but you’ll start to see holes eventually. The match up definitely isn’t the easiest.
This matchup is extremely in Cammy’s favor. She is so much faster than Birdie it’s ridiculous. I hate when I have to face Cammy. I came here to see what other people are saying about the matchup. Birdie’s moves have such slow startup compared to Cammy’s. If she’s close, he can’t get off his EX moves either because her buttons stuff it. Sucks man…
Edit: OK I take this back. You can’t play this matchup with Birdie like a lot of the others. As long as you use the armored shoulder smash and the standing HP from far away you’re golden. A lot of times you get Crush Counters which you can combo into EX headbutt etc. This matchup favors Birdie if you know how to play it properly.
Yes,because if you start doing this,people won’t start to block a move with hilarious startup and beeing -7 on block,what is punishable by either reversal Arrow,CA or H DP.
Not to mentoi that his heavys have so much recovery that you can whiffpunish them with st.hp on reaction.
Open yourself for whiffpunishs all day,misspacing moves with so much recovery is a good way to say “pls knock me down god damn it! I help you already,NOW KNOCK ME THE FUCK DOWN!!!”
