Pro’s usually don’t expect much from heavy characters…

[quote="OnlyWingedAngel, post: 6164491, member: 53379"But idk how many times i’ve had to say that Nemesis does, not,suck by any means.[/quote]

Meanwhile, I’m one of those defending him that he’s not BROKEN… :stuck_out_tongue:

We’re all playing a 1 week old game; tech is bound to happen. :wink:

mike ross is gonna pick up nemesis. i’m willing to put $ on it. now he’ll have a new team to lose with. :tup:

Has anyone got any good anti-tech roll stuff for Nemesis? Seems to happen fairly often to me, as Rocket super pretty much always carrys to the corner, and they just roll out on wakeup :confused:

All I’ve found so far is call drones then do HP into LP dash punch (safe on block cos drones, easy to confirm into launch on hit) or dash in -> command grab, but both are pretty ghetto right now…

Anti roll tech? I just chased the roll with a backjump + j.H + call assist (plasma beam) to push them slightly back into the corner.
Although nowadays I only use the rocket launcher super(or meter at all) Unless the kill is confirmed, otherwise I just go for resets. You lose too much momentum from using the supers imo.

dang combo’s dropping nemesis thats a shame, nemesis is so good tho… :frowning: of course from what i watch how he played nemesis it didnt look like to me he was using him right so idk i guess thats cool…

What do you think of that incoming character option select? : D
I caught you with it like 5 times : p

70% of the time I was trying to hit you back coming in with Hawkeye or strider or something lol. But I do like that command grab you pulled there first time I saw that I went “ahhh…so thats what him attacking me as I come in is for”. I pulled some resets off of you myself. I would have done better keepaway with hawkeye but I kept messing up Dragon Punch inputs, exploding arrows and scatter shots and such. lol I hit your Team hyper combo.

Nah, me attacking you is just to apply pressure, the rest is just a bonus.
If you wanna try replicating it, j.M + A2 j.S -> delayed command throw
It’s essentially the kara-command throw with Strider replacing the s.M, I try to Kara-command throw alot but people just pushblock all day so I came up with a solution @_@
and if course if people get antsy and push buttons, then they get hit by Strider, or if they weren’t blocking the j.M to begin with then they get to hold a nice combo in their chest. : P

You know on day 1 I was like “How the hell else are you going to combo with Nemesis?” and saw limited areas and i’m pretty creative. But it just simply astounds me when people find out about stuff like that. Not like i’m saying your tactic is the genius tactic of the century but its damn good, and I commend that. In my case all I could think of was Assist + wait for end of blockstun -> Tentacle Slam.

Thanks man, I theorycraft alot when I’m on the toilet and most of my references are the Sh1nd’s video.
I’m not very creative off the jump but once I get some inspiration rolling it’s like an avalanche.
That being said, expect more. : P

[media=youtube]YSAS8FZw_UI[/media]

Thankfully someone did this I was wondering about this for the longest time. Unfortuantly no “You want STARS i’ll give you STARS”

which is a god damn shame, no mater what the game is.

It sucks, cuz I’m the kinda guy that goes for big, Heavy type bruisers, but unless their name is Zangief or Sentinel, you NEVER see many big/heavy characters in top level play. They’ve got a terrible rap in fighting games, and thats not helped by the unfortunate pattern of each game’s resident grappler being fairly low on the tier lists most of the time :confused:

I feel like the main issue in MvC3, and just about every other game out there, is the way fighting game developers go about balancing characters.

They have Heavies and Grapplers deal great damage from single hits and command grabs and have equally good stamina, but they usually have fewer options for getting in and opening up the opponent (outside of said command grabs). Light characters do less damage per hit and less health, but that’s balanced by usually much better mobility and zoning.

so where does this logic fall apart? Why are the Yuns, chun li’s, Mags, Zeros, Arakune’s, and Metaknights of fighting games all on top so often, while the Zangiefs, Hakans, Birdies, Tagers, and Ganondorfs lie at the bottom? ironically, damage output. While a Heavy punch from a grappler will almost always hurt more than a punch from a faster character, when you look at the damage output from COMBOS, which is how most character’s really get their damage, you’ll see that often enough, the opposite is true. Nemesis Hulk and Sentinel do great damage, that goes without saying. But Wesker, Spencer and Dante can get the same damage, IF NOT MORE, with similar amounts of meter and with many, Many, MANY more opportunities to land said combos.

This is because of this weird unspoken rule that Heavy/ Grappler characters must have “simpler”, “shorter” combos. That means, that all the damage on those individual moves? meaningless if your opponent can land double the hits in one of their BnBs. If my Hard punch deals 100 damage and my opponent’s deals 80? that’s cool. But If I can only land that once in my BnB combo, and he/she can land that move 3 or 4 times in theirs? all the sudden that 20 point advantage doesn’t look so hot.

characters like Firebrand actually feel MUCH more balanced than all the other top tier IMO. is he a bajillion times more mobile than nemesis and the like? fuck yeah he is. do his combos have numerous relaunches and many, many hits? YEAH. does he deal similar damage as nemesis or Sentinel off of his BnBs FUCK NAW. He has the advantage with mobility already, he doesnt need godlike damage output when he’s far more likely to land a hit and get a combo than nemesis is. Firebrand appears to be one of the most well balanced pixies I’ve ever seen, and It’s a shame that the other rushdown/pixie characters dont have that same level of thought put into their damage output. I wish that design philosophy was followed more in UmvC2, and all other fighting games really. Mags, Dante, Virgil, Zero etc, etc. they dont NEED that damage. Hulk, nemesis, Sentinel, Tron, Haggar, THEY DO.

EDIT: jesus christ where did this essay come from!? sorry if this TLDR got a little off topic guys <: )

^ Will respond to that soon but

I just wrote the matchups for Nemesis,Strider,Ryu,V.Joe,Vergil,Trish,Frank,Haggar,Hsien-Ko and the majority of the Capcom side of the cast for the matchups thread BUT THEN I PRESSED BACKSPACE ACCIDENTALLY NOT ON EDIT MODE AND I DELETED ALL OF THE WORK AND WRITINGS I HAD WROTE FOR LIKE 2 1/2 HOURS. AT 3 30 AM IN THE MORNING. I WROTE LIKE 3 PARAGRAPHS FOR STRIDER …GSEHSEUGHSIUHFIUEHSIFEHFIHS SALT RAGE!

GOD…DAM…IT…STAAAAAAARS!!! GYAAAAH! (Grows Tentacles and starts F’ing stuff up like Nemesis)

So I WILL rewrite…grr…later tommorow when I get the chance. But for now i’ll just respond to more Nemesis vs Nemesis casuals with Substantial
@Substantial: That first game, I was really pumped I just came back from Perfecting someone over in a player match and I felt really awesome. Idk how I kept hitting you, I was playing a really aggresive Nemesis this time. Going more for rushdown rather than keepaway (besides Hawkeye). I knew you would predict those up tentacles in the reset so I mixed it up a bit. and it worked for me, three to four times it looked like it. My hawkeye keepaway is also improving as I now know how to get out of corner situations and stop air movements (Some people actually messaged telling me my hawkeye is the best they’ve played but either they were scrubs or my Hawkeye is actually pretty good. As well as my Nemesis in rushdown and choosing my battles. I figure i’m much better with Hawkeye on XF than I am with Strider because I have a hard time controlling him in XF3. With Hawkeye I feel more comfortable at being able to rain down arrows on you. I do like grabbing to punish Vajra though on block, good idea also good Strider relaunch.

Probably scrubby and sweeping late-night claim before I head off to bedtimes, but maybe companies need to design their Heavies with more armor in mind. Scare the opponent into backing off from an armored attack. Make them respect you. 'Course, they already do that, but it’s not enough in a lot of games. I think Cerebella combines this with fairly fast dashes in Skullgirls, as often as that game comes up for comparison these days.

this guy is no more broken then sentinel was in vanilla. I still think sent is more broken because of his higher mobility and crouching short armor. IMJ…
I can say he is insanely easy thats for sure. but broken? no at the slightest. Someone with lots of mobility and speed can shut him down. My nove dance around nems No problem.

Then you’re obviously playing against Nemesis’ who have no idea what they’re doing, lol.
And Nemesis’ s.H is a better normal than c.M, so I don’t even know why you’re bringing that up. =/
The “only” things Sentinel has on Nemesis(as a point character) is flight, and double jump imo. : P

well im pretty whooped in marvel coming from a street fighter background. but from what ive been seeing most nems ive came across might have been pretty whooped. i kno i buzz around him no problem. but maybe we can spar and you can show me how its done…

I genuinely cannot wait for your response. Game design/balance fascinates me, so I’m curious as to what other people think about the Heavy vs. Light character paradigm of fighting games. I could talk about this shit for DAYS. it’s one of the things that got me into game design in college.

NOBLE CACTUS, while I dont think that should be applied to ALL grapplers/heavies (dont wanna make that design element stale), it is a design element that is far underused, and I would love to see utilized more often. I actually applaud Capcom for applying it so well in MvC3 to be honest. They handed it out to (most) characters that needed it, but didnt go overboard like they did with MvC2 Sentinel (I’ve seen that motherfucker take a full felicia combo during the startup of his s.HP and still not get knocked out of it WTF!?). like, giving Hulk, Sentinel and Nemesis armor on many of their slower (but more dangerous if hit by) moves helps all 3 characters from being trash tier, since that makes their midscreen footsie and poke game MUCH stronger, since they have moves that will barrel through even the highest priority attack (so long as it doesnt have too many hits). it keeps faster characters from mindlessly pressing buttons and relying on how fast their moves are.

I’m glad to hear that Cerebella has armored moves, as well as a nice dash. I’m still suprised at how good Nemesis’ wavedash is.

SUBSTANTIAL, while I do agree that Nemesis is a stronger point character than Sentinel, I think you’re selling the robot short. Spit is still a better fullscreen projectile than rockets, whose only advantage is their use in the air (which does kick ass). a well times drone call also makes Sentinel a little scarier then nemesis at fullscreen. on the ground, Nemesis will lose to Sentinel’s zoning if he tries to zone sentinel.

Nemesis has better normals footsies, especially with his Ms and Hs. even with its delayed armor, nemesis cr.H > Sentinel cr.M, due to hitstun/damage scaling as well as disadvantage on block. If sentinel gets cr.M blocked, he can only save himself with a hyper and/or DHC which is risky and costly, while nemesis has L.clothesline which is safe vs. most of the cast. as for Air vs. Air, i’d say it’s leaning slightly towards nemesis. Sentinel has j.m an j.s, but Nemesis has j.H, j.S (for its groundbounce) and deadly reach, the latter of which is one of the best air2air and air2ground moves in the game, easily.

Sentinel has slightly less suicidal hypers though, and ignoring x-factor and DHCs, Sentinel is slightly less fucked in block for all of his hypers. Hard drive is nigh unpunishable outside of the corner, Hyper soduim force is free chip if it hits and even acts as a combo breaker, and Plasma storm is his worst, but never gets used outside of combos. Bio weapon assault is SUICIDE on block, and Bio Hazard Rush is as well (although less so). his LvL 3 is notable though. can’t say no to an unblockable command grab!

…aaaaaaaand I talked forever again. see what I said people? I can talk ab out this shit forever.

Dude is pretty strong. Has some nice defensive manuever despite being so big.

:h: and Jumping :h: are some his strongest AA and strongest moves IMO. Just watch out for your super armor to get blown up on :h:.

Jumping :h: can shutdown teleports/rushdowns quite hard. Screw you Wesker, Vergil. Dante.

cr. :h: > :qcf::l:/:m: covers alot of the screen. Risky but I think it can work sometimes when you need to get in quickly in which he gets lame out pretty hard.

But :h: straight up blows up alot of shit and rushdowns. You then can do :qcf::l: for whatever. Then when you got your game going you can go for :qcb: :l:/:m:/:h:

:qcf::l:, :s: are good long range punishers.