And that’s because L Canceling exists to begin with. Think of teching for a moment and how you can either tech forward, backward, stationary, or not teching at all in order to mess with the opponent. L Canceling isn’t anything like that. There’s never a reason to NOT L Cancel.
Wait… why the hell was L-canceling brought up in the first place? Its introduction to this thread came out of fucking nowhere.
what a worthless thread
yeah l-cancelling was kind of a bad idea. it only makes the game more difficult to play without adding any depth.
I still play it, because there’s plenty of depth to be found elsewhere. L-cancelling is just a barrier that I had to get through to do it. Unnecessary? Probably. Worth it? Definitely.
True l-cancelling is just a barrier to entry but you people pretend like melee is artificially deep. L-cancelling is just one of the basic mechanics that you have to learn. All fighters have something that you have to learn to be competitive.
L-canceling was stupid, but it’s inclusion was a homage to z-canceling in smash 64 (which was a glitch).
Regardless, if OS is right this will make ground approaching a great deal more viable because there will be less commitment.
L-cancelling is what made melee great imo. Makes the game a lot faster since there was lag after every aerial if you didn’t auto cancel.
L canceling is stupid, half landing lag on all aerials would’ve made the game great without artificially increasing difficulty by making something you need to do every time require input.
The only thing worse would’ve been the game if all aerials were simply stuck with normal lag.
for some reason, it may just be me…but I don’t like pushing L 6 times to hit my opponent twice. It just seems stupid.
I played Melee yesterday.
I got bored within 5 mins because of techs like L-canceling and Wavedash.
Also, if this is true, Ganon rises sharply in the tiers.
l-cancelling is more subconscious for me than anything. I do it automatically and I have to make a conscious decision to not l-cancel.
whatevs. it’s not like other fighting games don’t have ATs like wavedashing anyways so I don’t see your point about getting “bored” with them.
lets just play brawl + instead
Brawl is such a dumb game at the competitive level, even if OS did find something good who cares?
Remember Seibrik’s dash AT? OMG off stage combos out of a dash attack!
Remember Esam’s Quack Attack cancel lock? omg Pikachu is now god tier!
Yeah well this is also going in the “useful at random intervals but mostly meh” pile.
Bwahahahahah. Oh wow.
Also, whoever said something about pressing L 6 times to perform 2 aerials obviously isn’t good at melee. 1 aerial, 1 button press.
Was going to reply to this, but I forgot.
As long as people are willing to compete in coin flips, it’s competitive. Competitive means “: relating to, characterized by, or based on competition.” Multiplayer games are competitive by default.
Yes, namely in how players look at them. A mechanic is in the game and intended to be there. This is something like sidestep dodging. Players are OK with you win using this because it is something in the game and they can learn it. It has also been designed to be doable. Tricks are not inteded to be part of the game, but people find them anyway. These are bad in that players will feel cheated that they lose. They will hate that people can just use tricks to get an unfair advantage or feel hopeless as they no longer can be viable in a match and give up on it. Others will not want to dedicate their time to trying to learn this trick, and some that do will feel the game is not as fun this way. Basically, tricks are bad in that they drive people away from your game. Good balance would be removing or limiting tricks so weaker players will feel as they have some kind of chance. Mechanics are not bad so long as the mechanic is easy enough to learn and is useful. Boroque in Tatsunoko vs Capcom is a bad mechanic as it is too hard for normal players to master, gives better players a huge advantage and may not even seem that usable to most players. Sidestep dodging is a good one in that players understand it, they can do it, and they feel it has a purpose. tatsunoko vs Capcom is a good example of when mechanics go over board. There is just too much crap in that game. Given, Smash is also very heavy on them as well, so it would be smart for the designers to not try to put too many in there.
What you just said is no different than scrubs complaining not how to counter DPs or fighting Zangief in SF. If it’s doable, it can be learned. It’s also not like people can ask who they played how they did those tricks. It’s your fault if you just bitch about someone outdoing with something you haven’t seen before and doing nothing about it.
This whole concern for the beginners really needs to stop. You can’t baby them because they’ll never get any better. As I’ve said before, let the beginners fight among themselves and ask for advice from the better players. That’s how communities work. Help those who ask for it.
How the hell is too hard to master? I thought we wanted something where it’s easy to learn, hard to master. It’s all a matter of learning your characters and how to exploit the mechanic with those characters. I’m sorry that you’re not given everything there is to know about, but not only would all the information be overwhelming, there’s just more fun in discovering what’s there.
@KumaOso: Thias is something you still don’t understand, but it is a crucial part of designing games. You always design them for the lowest player, not the highest. Think of it as a pyramid. The strongest players are on top, but they are a small minority. They are very dedicated to the game and are naturally going to work their way to the top. They are easy to please, so you should spend less effort trying to please them. The lower tiers are weaker at the game, and are not as dedicated to it. But, there is a heck of a lot more of them. Please them is hard because you have a short time to please them. You have to get them interested in the game. They need more pursuading. They are your toughest customers, but if you can get them, you’ll do well.’
Capcom has done a wonderful job of losing these players as they kept making Street Fighter games. Street Fighter when from a much have game to a niche series in a matter of a few years. Nintendo has done really well keeping them in their game. This is what you must learn young grasshopper
[LIST]
[]Weak player will not actively seek out advice from better players. Their goal is to have fun, not become a master
[]Mechanics that may seem easy to you may not be easy for other people.
[]Most people do not see losing a bunch as room for improvement. They see it as an excuse to stop playing
[]These players will dedicate less time to your game. It needs to be easy to master in a few session (or at least the basics). Outside of Smash Brothers, there are not many fighting games that do this.
[/LIST]
To be honest, I don’t see what’s the problem with going with easy to learn, hard to master. The casual fanbase isn’t going to care much about the potential of mechanics and such so much as they can do the minimum required. This part of the fanbase isn’t going to be all concerned about tournaments unless they as individuals choose to. What I’m advocating for is what Melee in the end did: You can play any way you want. You on the other hand, are doing the exact opposite.
Care to explain why that’s the case. Don’t give me loose connections like saying EX Moves were the beginning of the decline. If we’re looking at this in regards to sales, I’d say Capcom Sequel Stagnation and the lack of familiar faces in the SFIII series played a role in all of it.
- In some cases, getting better can be considered fun to some people. I take it that you’ve never had to climb to the top of anything, figuratively speaking.
- The converse is true as well. We all learn things differently. Typically, people are visual, audio, written word, or kinesthetic learners. I happen to be both the first and the last so this stuff comes easy to me because it combines both concepts.
- You and I must see mastering in different ways. I see mastering as tapping the potential of something easy to learn; seeing just what I can and can’t do.
If you want accessibility, the answer doesn’t lie necessarily in super easy stuff. You want to know what Street Fighter II had, but the Smash series has never had: An arcade scene. Because arcades require you to come to them to play, there are other people as well that are playing the game. Communicating with people face to face is a completely different animal than communicating with someone online. Because of this, people can learn from each other on a first hand basis which involves visual and kinesthetic learning. Not only that, but there’s a strong social aspect to all this. You may not want to play Street Fighter because you like it. You may to play it just so you can hang out with your friends. Unfortunately, this kind of thing is mostly exclusive to Japan and some American arcades. Via online somewhere like Smashboards is not the same as you’re just seeing words. No one’s helping you directly. The only way you’re going to get anything like the arcade scene is to go to tournaments and meet people.
Before I go on, remember Kuma that my conclusions are only based on evidence. The evidence will never change.
[LIST]
[]Street Fighter 2 was very successful
[]Smash Brothers is the best selling fighting series. It sales have gone up with each game
[*]Street Fighter’s sales have plummeted.
[/LIST]
You forget the fact the players of different skill levels play all the time thanks to the internet. The difference was that Melee didn’t have internet. Wavedashing was a big concern for weaker players. They were the ones that demanded it be removed. Take Snaking in Mario Kart. It had been around for a while (was in MK:DD), but it didn’t get removed until Mario Kart Wii. That is because it wasn’t a problem until online. Weaker players didn’t feel they had a chance, so it’s gone.
Why is harder then what. We know Capcom has lost a lot of players because Street Fighter has done so poorly. Street Fighter 4, despite having all the old characters, could not met SF2. Most likely it was because there was more and more stuff added in each Street Fighter and this drove out the weaker players who couldn’t keep up with all the changes and new techniques. To show what I mean
SF Alpha added EX moves
SF3 added parries
SF4 added focus attacks
There is probably more that I can’t remember. The point is that the games have gotten more confusing and this keeps out weaker players as they don’t have the patients or time to learn them.From Sirlin
One of the strange things about Street Fighter IV is that the ways they chose to make it more accessible seem to have had the opposite effect, with focus attacks for example pretty much useless unless you can dash cancel them. In the Street Fighter II, a ‘bread and butter combo’, as they call it, one you do all the time, is jump, roundhouse, low kick, fireball. You can win tournaments doing that?literally. But a bread and butter combo in Street Fighter IV is dragon punch, focus cancel, dash cancel, and then do an ultra fireball. That’s a lot of inputs.
There is no doubt the games have gotten harder. There is also no doubt that players are being left behind as SF4 had quite a few copies on the used shelf. Smash Bros has almost none.
There is something very important you’re forgetting. The arcade game model.
Arcade games had a lot of competition from other games. You could even go and call it perfect competition. If you game didn’t get people quickly, the customer would just walk to a competitior. Thus, by nature they had to be easy to pick up. Also, they had to be very addicting so players would want to keep playing, but they also had to be challenging to keep players popping in quarters.
Here is the thing. Challenging=/=complex. Super Mario Bros is very assessable, but it is hard. The controls are easy for players to get a hold of. In the same way, Bison was hard despite SF2 was assessable. The point is the player should be able to pick up the game and start kicking ass very quickly. Fighting games today do not do that. You have to learn the motions to do most of your attack and you need to learn combos, so kicking ass is very late, late enough to give the game back to the store and find a new one.
The point is to return to what truly made the arcade games:Accessibility, challenging and addicting.
I didn’t say aerial I said attack. and by that I meant, Hit, wavedash, hit wavedash, dash dance grab
hit = a 1
wave dash = x r 3
hit = a 4 or x a 5
wavedash = 6 or 7
then grab = x z 8 or 9
Uh duh, obviosly you aren’t very good at the game because you didn’t realize this when I first said it. Everyone else did.
On top of that I left out the L cancelling. Satisfied?
EDIT: I just realized I said L 6 times. I guess this calls for HYPERBOLE JUSTIFICATION.
Likewise if I said you are acting like a big baby or something stupid, I’m not saying you are literally acting like a big baby, because I cannot see you shitting yourself or spitting in your mother’s face.