AVI to MPEG4? So where would I start?
PSPVideo
- Overview of VC1
- More interesting VC1 info (Alex is a tinkerer, so provides stuff like a codec powertoy)
As is ASF (WMV). Being part of the Multimedia Registration (MMReg) team, AVI is laughably overburdened through some bad design/registration issues that weren’t thought through ~8+ years ago (a lot of this is Microsoft’s fault: the balkanization that Gej helped sponsor really broke the camel’s back, though - there are something like 12 MPEG4-VfW ““registrations”” right now, and the DIVX/DIV3/DIV4 fourCCs are registered to me at last check since Gej/etc never bothered to register…). So now if you’re going to use AVI, it only makes sense if you’re going to specifically use ACodec A and VCodec B, and then you need to point people to the right codec while avoiding the minefield of bad codecs that people have easy access to or already have installed.
So yeah, the Sucking Of AVI As A Useful Format is a great conversation. I have a couple background plans in semi-motion at Microsoft that will provide some levels of band-aids for AVI-as-a-useful-format, but I really need me or Diane to get an intern (with great Access knowledge, probably) to move forward to the next step. :sad: (I’ve been helping out as I can in my extra time, but the damage is pretty deep and really does require full time attention that I don’t have time to sort through.)
You know MPEG1 compression sucks.
You know MPEG2 is much better than MPEG1 but for pay.
You know MPEG4 is about the same overall quality but has significantly less penetration for the user base I’m trying to show videos to.
As such, I stand firmly behind WMV being better as a final production format than any MPEG option when attempting to provide content to a mass market of random users.
Is there some reference to that? I’m unaware of any modern comparison (h264 vs VC-1) that shows more than generally non-noticeable differences in either direction. “Less lossy” is generally a pretty poor abstract metric since lossiness is generally defined and constrained by encoding parameters.
Codecs are a fascinating field, and what you use can often depend upon who or what you are trying to reach or do. If you’re trying to maintain quality until final production, of course you don’t use any lossy codec. Uncompressed video is the way to go for that environment.
FFDShow is free
FFDShow skirts around the edge of legality as far as I’m aware, much like LAME. If you try to move that into a corporate market, you may have problems. It’s just not a “Great” option. It works, no problems with that, but YANAL. It’s also got pretty minor market penetration so again even if you dodge the legality issue it’s just not interesting. And then even if you decide you love it, you have the problem of all the other dodgy third party MPEG2 decoders out there… it’s a nightmare that should have been avoided.
To repeat myself, no one could possibly be more upset by this than I am. I would love for this stuff to work. All I want is what works, and having about ten times the breadth of experience of anyone else in this area … no offense: I’ve got code in the FhG MP3 codec + a couple others, have worked directly with most all companies/technologies in this arena, have done massive customer support as a hobby (I like helping people), and have supplied getting close to a petabyte of videos to end users… it’s a field I’m an expert in. So… yeah, there’s pretty much nothing you’re going to be able to mention that’s going to be helpful. MPEG1 and MPEG2 are generally dead as far as usability. Vista’s MPEG2 decoder will be a great shot in the arm, but it’s still almost too little too late.
I’m an end user who does video editting. Telling me that MPEG2 isn’t as usable with the current crop of tools in the market vs. WMV is crap. I refuse to show any sort of support for WMV until Microsoft publishes the specs in which tools like VirtualDub can use it with out fearing a C&D, then we’ll talk about WMV in the end user experience.
btw, the MPE Group publishes their spec. That’s how FFDshow and other F/OSS apps support MPEG2. However, WMV is completely proprietary and VirtualDub was served with a C&D for supporting reading WMV files.
Sadly, you can’t avoid the point that MPEGLA itself is saying MPEG2 decoders aren’t free, and as such we can probably end the “MPEG2” tangent.
Editing is different than playback and we both know that. MPEG2 is usually fine in most editors, and there’s tons of editors that do a great job with it. That’s pleasing. But I don’t care what format you tinker with, if I’m going to supply it to users, it’s not going to be MPEG1 or MPEG2 if possible because those are pains in the goddamn ass for most users. End of story.
Happily, we’re already there. :tup:
Welcome to VC1. :tup: Good basic thread.
Actually, he wasn’t, per his own write-up:
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http://www.advogato.org/article/101.html
GPL is cute but suffocating. That’s deliberate on its part. shrug Alternatives are/were available for him.
I actually talked to Avery about this (IIRC: I’d have to troll waaayy old archived mails to be sure, since this is a 6+ year old story, almost as old of my little sister), and it’s been mentioned elsewhere that the guy who called him (a guy I work with and have spoken to about this) had offered other options. I understand why it was done, and why he turned down the alternatives. shrug People are going to have different licensing/rights schemes, and that’s a hideous legal/political discussion that just is not particularly interesting in Tech Talk.
Give it a rest. You don’t really understand these issues well enough to keep posting. I totally respect your interest and passion, but you’re not really contributing anything right now. :sad:
OK, so, Windows Movie Maker?
MPEG2 decoders ARE free. FFDShow -is- legal and free.
Yet, MPEG1 plays just fine in Windows media player going all the way back to atleast Win95 OSR2.
But I’m talking about -free- editors and FREE tools. WMV is certainly supported in pay tools, but is NOT supported F/OSS
So it’s a yet another patent encumbered format?
Actually, he wasn’t served with a C&D, he was told politely to stop it because it infringed on MS’ own patents. GPL isn’t suffocating. Patents are.
[quote]
Today I received a polite phone call from a fellow at Microsoft who works in the Windows Media group. He informed me that Microsoft has intellectual property rights on the ASF format and told me that, although the implementation was still illegal since it infringed on Microsoft patents. I have asked for the specific patent numbers, since I find patenting a file format a bit strange. At his request, and much to my own sadness, I have removed support for ASF in VirtualDub 1.3d, since I cannot risk a legal confrontation.[/img]
No.
WMV9 represents something really wrong with multimedia. I really don’t mind patents or companies trying to secure their IP as long as they make sure that it’s interoperable with future products. No one loses when a free software application can read a video file. No one who’s willing to pay large licensing fees is going to use something like Gordian Knot anyway.
Let’s face it, VirtualDub still doesn’t support asf or WMV as a container. Mac OS X doesn’t support WMV out of the box either. The only apps that do are applications like VideoLAN which contain an absurd amounts of IP violating code.
Yeah - give that a spin. Should be really really stupidly intuitive. It’s not complex. If you want Complex Awesome, go for Premiere. 
Note that if you’re importing MPEG2, it may be a hassle: single-pass encoding should work better if the source is MPEG2. If you can, only convert MPEG2->WMV on a Vista box… I can do that for you for now if needed. =\
I’m not going to bother with you anymore. It’s like trying to have an intelligent discussion with my cat. Plonk! Please do likewise.
I would suggest you do three things:
- make it a habit to research issues before speaking about them.
- read the Linux Advocacy How To Guide, specifically Canons of Conduct. Nice series of articles, actually.
- not hijack threads. If you’re going to represent a point of view, you do everyone else a disservice when you’re off-topic and haven’t done your homework.
I agree strongly that there is “something really wrong with multimedia”. We need to get through this next five year stretch, and Microsoft, as much as people may hate it, is driving other people to do better by you as well. <3
Taiki: I think what mr-micro$oft-is-better-than-sex is trying to say is that although FFDShow is free (according to it’s creators), the MPEG licencing authority deosn’t agree, and i’m afraid if it went to court, the MPEGLA would probably win. :shake:
Preppy: Believe it or not, I admire your apparent technical skills, and I would love to have your job.:razzy: However, on these forums you have the job of devil’s advocate by default, as to us you are a direct spokesmen on behalf of MS. So the majority of views will be critical of your employer, and will attack your views and standpoints in order to discredit MS. Comes with the job, i’m afraid. Take Taiki off ignore, and try and answer the issues he’s addressing, it will be for the benefit of all.
He actually works for MS? No wonder he got so uppity when people told him theres better than wmv
Te OP stated clearly that his codec choice is based on what preppy says he supports on his site. His site states his preference for .avi and .wmv, although .avi is a bit broad, if he could list the specific preferred codec(s) for avi that would help.
If the topic was submitting videos to youtube, it’s pretty worthless to start hating on flash movies, debating a format that is just going to need re-encoded to be put on preppy’s site is pretty worthless too. If I misunderstood the OP, let me know, but to me it seems thats what he wanted to do.
It’s great that everyone loves their format, but unless your point is that all the videos going to preppy’s site (or any site) should be converted to <x> other format, i don’t see where it’s going. If your actually prepared to make that point, then by all means open a new thread and start that topic.
^-- Co-sign with FMJ. I have no problem discussing these issues, and in fact just sent Taiki a PM addressing his questions (cc’ing Punkus in case you find the answers interesting). This, though, isn’t the right thread. I’ll probably make a new general multimedia thread in the next little while and y’all can party there. <3
sometimes i wonder about SRK…
Who encoded the last EVO trailer (Evo2k5DVDTrailer.wmv)? It was clear and crisp. I’d really like to know what program and settings were used.
OH. MY. FREAKING. GOD.