Best single player joystick for PC, Sanwa sticks?

Tech Talk
21

Since you decided to pm me I’ll make my opinion known to other srkers. I’d also like to say that your previous comment is an insult to the other stick makers on the forums and your pot-shots won’t get you any more sales.

Any stick maker will agree the $225-$250 price tag is a bit much. Not to mention I feel that the

overall look isn’t with the times so your claims of style don’t hold much ground (to each their own on that one.) Also having a “swappable cartridge controller” isn’t necessary, especially with many lag free converters available on the market at less than $20. Also, I see nothing of Happ P-360s which would tack on a little to the overall price of a stick (this stick is the more preferred of American sticks) but if you’re using Ultimate or Competitions, the sticks aren’t that costly. Happs in general are very affordable. It costs around $14 for one competition stick and $2 a pushbutton, if you order in bulk (seeing as how you do, you are a “company”) the price scaling makes it even cheaper. Same for the buttons. So, let’s say you order hundreds of units of competition buttons and sticks, you’re paying about $1.50 a button and $11 a stick… So, let’s do the math. 9 Comp buttons, 1 stick… That comes to about $24.50, minus the other “assignable” buttons (useless outside of emulation.) All you have left is the PCB, some laminate, and other cheap things to build the box itself. So, where is this extra $100 coming from? Well, I can see the construction is rugged in appearance, so I guess you could con someone by saying they’re paying for “durability” or something. However, your prices are ridiculous and I will say nothing other than your sticks are a ripoff. You con people that know little about arcade sticks.

I’d also like you to take a look at

http://www.massystems.com/ProStick.html

To say your sticks have the legacy and uphold to the standards of mass-systems sticks would also be laughable …look at the price on those. $150 for a stick that includes a P360 and $100 FOR ONE WITH THE EXACT SAME PARTS AS YOURS :rofl:

There are also a few complaints I have with a few of the things you have said on your site.

“No other manufacturer offers this flexibility in this neat of a package. Search the internet for examples. The only great looking controllers are custom built, by hand, by the person using it. That requires a TON of research, a TON of planning and a TON of construction time. There are several pitfalls to fall into while building a real arcade controller. That is the advantage of the Podular System.”

What, are you trying to scare people away from building sticks? What kind of pompous ass tells someone “no, you can’t do it, it’s too complicated.” That’s just bad business.

“With GOPODULAR! controllers, you can turn your PC into the ultimate console system. Want to use your controller with a game that only takes keyboard inputs? Then use a software program like “Joy2Key” or “RB-Joy” (part German, part English site). These programs let you map the gamepad inputs to whatever keystroke you need. That makes almost any game compatible with our controllers!”

Oh, so you don’t have to use an adapter… You just have to use a program for keyboard-only games. That’s not exactly user-friendly for the crowd you seem to be targeting (the uneducated) Not to mention, it’s not really 100% pc-compatible if you have to use input-mapping programs. Also, you could at least host the programs on your site as opposed to forcing consumers to navigate through a german site.

**
“GOPODULAR! does not use substandard “imitation” controls. Some manufacturers are using joysticks and buttons coming out of Korea & China that just DO NOT have the quality and longevity of American, European, and Japanese arcade parts.” **

What’s wrong with Fanta parts? Some people actually prefer them…

**
“There are very few manufacturers that support cross-platform use, and when they do, they only support it through various adapters. This method “works”, but can cause lag and/or button translation. GOPODULAR! offers the only true solution… swappable encoders”**

Aside from the bad English, you’re yet again deceiving and confusing your customers. The SFAE stick for example is multi-platform. Also, newer ps3 sticks and xbox360 sticks can be used on both pc and their respective consoles. There are also many lag-free converters out there for each console (the innovation for ps2 to dreamcast for example.)

I honestly just see it as gimmicky, overpriced, and a bit misleading. You are not Sharper Image.

I’m sure they are quality controls, I can’t say otherwise. However, I refuse to accept the price-tag and the presentation. :tup:

22

I really don’t give a shit. A well built stick is worth the money. Whether it be 100 bucks for whatever MAS is putting out or 220 for a stick GoPodular is putting out. Yeah, it’s expensive, but that doesn’t mean it’s a rip off. I don’t like the fact that the things are pretty tiny, but i’m not going to call it a rip off. It’s not like he’s selling rebranded X-Arcade stuff.

Beyond that, I’ve seen this guy give advice and tips to stick builders that may or may not try to butt in on his business. Bad for business, maybe, but he’s a decent guy. Lay the fuck off man.

23

It’s not about the person, it’s about the business. Cut the price a lot (at least $80-$100) and you have a fine product. Just don’t make so many unfounded claims. Tough love. :wink:

24

You can’t compare our stuff to Mass anymore than you can compare a Civic to a Ferrari. They’re two completely different animals. If I compared a parts list between the two, I’d bet our panels have at least twice as many. If you don’t like how they look, that’s one thing. Everyone has their own opinions. To say they are a ripoff and a con… you better be able to back that up because I will respond. Since you have never actually seen one of our panels, I don’t understand how you can expect your comments to be accurate, much less noteworthy to others. Anyhow…

It is a business. I guess I don’t even understand where that’s coming from? I own a registered Corporation in the State of Minnesota. I also hold a registered trademark with the US Patent and trademark office for “GOPODULAR!”. That’s why I had to go through the site and add that little “R” with a circle around it. I run it, my family helps out.

I’ve never said anything bad about any other builder. In fact, I’ve made it a point to try and list other builders when replying in threads.

The paint comment is because paint IS cheap. I use it myself on the insides of our panels and on the bottoms. Plus it is 1000x faster to do than apply laminate. Extra time = extra cost.

Please post your information about $20 lag-free converters in one of the many threads discussing that topic. Everyone would appreciate it.

Quite the contrary. I won’t sell a panel until the buyer knows WHY he’s choosing the parts he is. That’s why there isn’t a shopping cart on the website. To buy one, you HAVE to talk to me personally first. That way people can ask questions immediately and I can help them choose parts based on their playstyle. I’ve had people who have used a variety of joys/buttons and knew exactly which parts they wanted and I’ve exchanged 25+ emails with individuals where we’ve tried to determine which parts best suit their playstyle.

Basically, I did my first countertop over 15 years ago and I’ve been building arcade stuff for 10 years. I’ve done everything from controllers to full scratch-built cabinets. People liked what I was doing and asked me to make them stuff. Last year I decided to put it online. Each one of our panels are built exactly how I would build it if I was keeping it. There aren’t any shortcuts. Each panel has to be wired for for every console even if it’s only being purchased for use on a single console. Look at how much of a PITA it is to do a Xbox 360 controller because you can’t use a common ground. Everyone of our panels are wired that way. There are 34 soldered quick disconnects inside each box so it’s easier to switch a micro if one goes belly-up. The design keeps evolving based on customer feedback and we’re trying to streamline the build process. We started a different joystick mounting process about six-months ago. Now we use a studded plate similar to a trackball mounting plate so if you buy a panel with a Happ joystick, you can easily swap it out for a Sanwa or a Seimitsu later. All panels now ship with that custom plate. It has a Happ bolting pattern, so we also have to make custom mounting plates for Sanwa sticks to switch them to a Happ pattern. Sanwa sticks also have to have their grounds split before they can be used with an Xbox 360. Again, ALL panels we ship containing Sanwa stick have to be modified so they are ready for an Xbox 360 cartridge.

We don’t use Happ P360 joys because they aren’t compatible with all consoles. We did design a circuit so it would work with a PS1/2, but it added too much to the cost. Due to the constraints on the cartridge size, it would need to be mounted within the panel itself, so everyone would have to pay for it. I decided it wasn’t worth it because the P360 needs modification before it meets my quality standards anyhow. I didn’t think it was worth it, so out the window it went.

Console specific controllers are easier to make, therefore it should be obvious they will be cheaper. Certain enclosure designs are also easier to make (Mass), and some materials are easier to work with and/or cheaper (paint, melamine). I’ve made the decisions regarding design, material choice, etc based on feedback from other arcade-nutty family members and previous customers. I’ll be honest and say our panels are a PITA to build, but they’re built how I think they *should *be built, and they’re built so I’m confident we can provide support for future consoles.

If that’s what you meant by calling our stuff a ripoff and a con, then sure. Con me up. :rock:

25

If I cut the price $80, I wouldn’t cover my costs.

Sorry for the derailing of the thread btw

26

I’m curious as to what the insides of one of these looks like. Care to post a picture or two?

27

Jesus, you got and Xbox 360 controller in a project box? Damn, that couldn’t have been easy. You got a pallet of DOA4 controllers you’re gutting for that?

Edit: Oh you sneaky bastard. You’re not using grounds, you’re giving everything its own wire. That’s why the high pin IDC connectors. Nice.

28

Full wiring is the only way to ensure future compatibility. It requires “extra” work though.

I’ll see if I can get some interior pics up on the website over the next couple days.

I have a note about the 360 controller working on the PC on the X360 cart page. “Note: The Xbox 360 encoder can work with Windows, but we do not officially support it in that respect. The direction pad is recognized by Windows as a HATSWITCH. If the program / game title you are trying to use it with does not recognize hatswitch inputs, it will not work.” (the bold is on that page as well). I also notify people that they can do that if they are asking about both the PC and X360 cartridge. I’ve also posted about using the 360 controller on a PC in these forums. It works well, but some people don’t like messing with drivers.

If I was trying to scare people away from building their own sticks, I wouldn’t be posting here or on BYOAC helping people do it.

Why do I keep switching between “adapters” and “adaptors”? Do the brits spell it with an “o” or something? It drives me nuts and I’m the one doing it.

29

That’s cool. I’m suprised you haven’t offered up PS3 and Wii attachments (using the gamepad attachment) yet. Good work.

30

I guess we can agree to disagree? I still can’t add up the price to that amount. One thing though, I’ll give you props for supporting a charity (Child’s Play) :tup: That’s respectable no matter who you are. Trying to decide, but I think I’m gonna buy a kid Bomberman. :rofl: :tup:

31

I can flush $75.00 real quick to help balance the numbers:

$250.00 - assumed sale price
($50.00) - federal income tax (assume 20% tax bracket)
(~$17.50) - state income tax (Minnesota is around 7%)
($7.50) - Paypal fees (3%)

Down to $175.00

32

You’re taxed on profit, not sales.

33

When you sell it, isn’t it all “income” under the tax code? Then you work backwards trying to claim some of that money back by justifying costs. At least that’s how the tax guy explained it to me. With this type of stuff being manual work, you get burned because you can’t write it all off.

Plus with Social Security tax, unemployment tax, medical, and all that other garbage, it’s probably in the ballpark. I’ll find out soon enough how bad the tax implications really are. :sweat:

34

It’s profit, plain and simple. So - your selling price, minus costs (parts, equipment, medical, utilities, rent, etc.).

35

Bump.

36

Cool pics. Will the disconnect collars that you soldered the wires to fit into to the prongs of Sanwa and Seimitsu buttons?

Also, I have a minor usability suggestion for that page. Make the images link to their larger counterparts as well.

37

We use a smaller size disconnect for Sanwa/Seimitsu. The hole diameters are different, so if you wanted to switch from Happ -> S/S, you’d have to come up with a way to “collar” the button so it doesn’t slop around in the hole, and then squish the disconnect slightly to make it work. If you wanted to go S/S -> Happ, you’d need to bore the holes larger and replace the disconnects/harness. The wiring harness can be unbolted from the panel, so you wouldn’t need to solder inside the box.

Yeah, that is stupid not to have the pics linked as well.