Well thought. I agree that it might detract from the tourney, but its best than Art coming for teh purposes Chocobo has discussed.
And also its better than a ban, IMO, since players will have more pride in their title and it wont spread the idea of rejecting the best players to other places(where people might be less reasonable than VA players and use it for the wrong reasons).
I think a no money prize could be the best answer. Something that woul be nice to have, but that most peole wouldnt buy for themselves with their own money. This would prevent players coming solely for the prize, but would allow them to have a nice goal to pursue.
Something like a Genesis or SuperNes console would fit the description pretty well, or maybe random DVD movies/games(not fighting). Just my 2 cents
Removing the prizes is too similar to banning. They are both radical solutions to an issue that (at least IMO) doesn’t require it, if it were ok to just remove the money, then why beat around the bush? If it were ok to take any drastic approach, then banning would be the best option.
The argument is that we might be able to come up with a solution that doesn’t cause more issues than it solves. Looking back, i think this, and the ‘ties’ article are actually a similar issue (despite the seemingly contradictory tone of the two articles), some players feel that the top players aren’t contributing to the ‘event’, and are just working it like a job, getting paid, and going home.
Before people overreact, the debate really isn’t IMO over the extent of the claims and pointing fingers at who, we just need to constantly find ways to get better.
If the problem is that players aren’t giving back, then just put them to work before they get the cash.
We can see the same thing with the japanese coming to evo, but remembering last year we got a 5on5 in 2 games, several hours of 3s casual, and definately no ties =P i have a better feeling about this year (despite the fact that there isn’t a dedicated event, I can still assume they will work a little for evo before getting paid ). I think with this years MvC2 5on5 we’ve started to extend that to within the US scene, and hopefully it will continue to the regional level and hopefully ease some of these tensions.
This is kinda funny because we have been having lots of no prize tourneys locally. We have about 10-12 players on average but if we were to add entry fees for prizes, I’m sure it will drop down to 5-6. Sadly, that’s how it is in Cowland, PA. Whether to have prizes or not really depends on your area. You can’t possibly satisfy everyone. I have to travel a minimum 200+ miles for some real competition. Just thinking about it makes me wish I lived in japan.
My point is, banning outsiders might not be all that bad. Whatever keeps the players happy is the way to go.
Thats the thing, in the first version of the thread, there were more VA people opposing it than supporting it. But it’s not effective IMO to just say, well 80% of people think one way, so the other 20% can go to hell we don’t need them. While i believe some of their specific points are off the mark, i can see where they are coming from.
In our own tourneys, the reason there was no money wasn’t fear that someone would take it moreso the people weren’t going to stay to spend it in the first place, since money is usually an initial turnoff. Hopefully we can soon reach the level where people will want to come take our money, and because this issue was brought up, i think we’ll be better prepared for it.
The difference is that down there they evidently had the people to justify the prizes, so the answer isn’t to just remove it. It’s just a specific problem that isn’t resolved by money alone (re: ties link from the previous post), but IMO expecting travelling players that are obviously better to give something back, and putting some money behind that requirement
Seth really had outlined this initially, so it’s not like i’m being that original. I guess the question to me is that if he can say the same thing better than i can (with some added spice so the casual readers would listen), then how am i supposed to do better through posting replies? Forunately people that would be affected have started to solve the issue on their own, and this specific case no longer exists, so I guess there’s nothing current to talk about here anyway.
The giving back idea seems to be the better. One thing that bothers me a little about banning, or forcing players to “give something back” is that it is all a little discriminating.
If the players can give back without being forced to(no obligation) than I think this is really the best idea, keeping the competiton level high.
Discrimination in itself isn’t bad, unfair discrimination is what we want to avoid. I think people agree with it in principle, and just never got around to the specifics of it.
The problem arised because noone knew what the obligation was, art probably got the impression that he was fulfilling his obligation, choc doesn’t feel he did.
We don’t think alike, so why not just put ‘obligation’ into terms everyone understands?. Now if things don’t turn out as planned, it’s not players pointing fingers, it’s in the agreement, which can just be changed. Sure there will have to be some level of enforcement, not everything can be on the honor system, nor should it be :).
We’re forced to do things all the time, but it’s not all evil, imagine if we could force everyone to shower and bring extra DO before evo, the world would be a better place.
How about this: Why dont people get paid using their Apex rating. Before you all try to chop my head off hear me out. Part of the Apex calculation is the amount of tournaments you’ve been in. So players with lower ratings would be players who either havent won tournaments or play in smaller tournaments. Players with higher ratings would get less money and players with lower ratings would get the normal prize money. This would stop the “masters” from jumping into smaller tourneys where the incentive would be lower. The only place where they would get paid well is at the larger tournaments where this rule of paying them by the APEX score dosent count. What do you think?
How about this: Why dont people get paid using their Apex rating. Before you all try to chop my head off hear me out. Part of the Apex calculation is the amount of tournaments you’ve been in. So players with lower ratings would be players who either havent won tournaments or play in smaller tournaments. Players with higher ratings would get less money and players with lower ratings would get the normal prize money. This would stop the “masters” from jumping into smaller tourneys where the incentive would be lower. The only place where they would get paid well is at the larger tournaments where this rule of paying them by the APEX score dosent count. What do you think?
i think that’s a good idea
wow. interesting. id like to see how this flies w/ some ppl. ill be back to tell you the results of my excursion to find out.
People IMO are trying to solve problems that don’t exist. At times i think we get fustrated because our scene isn’t at the level we’d like it to be, and we start getting crazy ideas. If you notice the scene originally mentioned, is not the same as it was at the time of the post, i don’t think ‘master’ players had anything to do with that.
IMO the solution above creates a system that is designed to keep people mediocre, and as soon as someone gets too good, you would cast them out. Banning, adjusting prizes, etc… are all the same idea at heart, just phrased a little bit differently.
A bad solution focuses on rewarding players for not competing. A good solution would increase the number of players that can reap the rewards of being good, through increasing prizes and improving/duplicating the events. The catch of course is that it takes work, and isn’t just a quick hack, but if there are any solutions for improving the scene, they would be along those lines IMO.
Yeah, you right. I really dont care about playing someone really good. Im allways looking for better opponents because good players are hard to find while there are more scrubs than there are grains of sand at the beach. :mad: This was just an idea. You know, if people decide that they MUST keep better players away from their tourneys, this is the best way to do it. Dont think that I want to see the same stale ass fights from scrub after scrub while I have to travel to a major toruney to see elite players. Scrubs who fight against scrubs just become more scrubby. But a scrub who fights ME :evil: consistantly and learns from his losses will become a tournament winner.
I just traversed from NorCal to SoCal for a Tourney. The Scene is WAY more serious in SoCal and up here I get very little variety in Comp. Im not that great anyways so I got BLASTED in the tourney but it was fun.
I think There should be a tourney (If I can i’d host one in a few months) I don’t see myself saying “SoCal can’t come, they’re too good” Id Probably WANT SoCal to come own up on my srub comp so they improve and I get soem decent comp!
I gotta agree with some players in this thread, most ‘players’ are for fun driven. These are the kind of players that shouldn’t be hosting competitions to begin with.
There’s a LOT smaller group of competitive players who always go for the win, no matter what it takes. If the opponent keeps buying it it’s his fault.(Goddamnit; it’s like saying gouki’s super smashup is lame, while actually you can race at him and grab him before he grabs you).
The drive to win is what makes a lot of players better. It’s even false to assume that getting in contact vs higher levels = gaining skill. If there’s no drive to win there’s no drive to learn. Lots of people “stealing” prize money don’t even need to do it on intend, the common assumption is that when there’s money; there’s good players(unless they’re broke and need the money). In opposite to the assumption, common practice shows that mostly “for fun” players show up and it doesn’t stay “for fun” as soon as they get their asses raped by only one competitive player.
So ethically I don’t support the banning, since I’m a competitive player and have drive to win and drive to learn. But from logical point I can see why they’re banned, BUT if you ban these people from regular tournaments at least give them an invite for more competitive stuff, so that these people can continue to learn and maybe even beat Daigo:P
Banning top players from a tourney? :wtf: It’s the equivalent of a group of top players banning scrubs from “their” tournys. A tourney that bans open participation reflects poorly upon the character of those who would encourage a standard of competitive exclusion. A top player and a potential top player have one thing in common: they both have something to prove each other.
If a trend banning higher ranking players became the norm a retro-grade system would be in effect, which essentially crowns the top scrub of a given tourney in a given area. I don’t see how this satisfies any competitor’s goal of determining an increase in skill relative to that of another’s.
hehe… i know that this is old news, but i found that the best way to entice players to improve is to impose bounties on them. If the “top-tier” player gets knocked out of the tournament, award the winning player with a cash prize. People seem to like to work for their skrilla.
