I feel like T.Hawk’s walking speed isn’t something they would ever intend to change. His dash should also move a little further forward and faster than it does. I find myself not using dash as much because it’s so slow and ineffective. I make the mistake of jumping in instead, which is easily punishable by any DP… So that’s my own fault. I would just like to see a better dash. And again, Condor Spire needs a buff of any kind. It’s just not useful enough. It’s advantage on even hit is not good enough, and is still punishable on hit (as seen from my video in the “Self-Improvement Thread” I started).
I doubt he’ll be too good. I think he’ll definitely be solid, but not powerful. Even if they we’re to give T.Hawk these changes, the dynamics of his bad matchups will basically be the same (That also depends on whether or not they buff/nerf his bad matchups too). He’ll still lack reliable ways of opening people up, and will still be very dependent on his opponents making mistakes so he can take advantage of that opening and capitalize on it.
These changes are definitely significant changes for him, but nothing too outrageous IMO.
More than anything else, I too want to see a u2 motion change. In order to reliably pull it off I have to input it so slow that short of psychic moments(which still happen often enough to make the ultra useful) I either drop the motion and get an ex tb, or even worse an ex spd. Or I take to long to input it and eat a free jump in combo for my troubles. Beyond that I would like to see concord spire be safer on hit, and faster on startup. I don’t mind it being unsafe on block, I just don’t want to be punished for hitting with it, and with the speed increase it would be more reliable for covering ground. As a dream addition make the hp version travel really far as well… you can even make it unsafe even on hit, just make it so we can use it to punish blocked blanka balls.
I’m loving the T.Hawk data. Glad to see so many people out there want to see him in all his greatness.
Everybody agrees about the walk speed, U2 and condor dive so I won’t mention those, but…
Tomahawk Buster
Whatever property makes me get hit clean when I do it on a character that’s doing a naked jump. Fix that.
SPD
Um…gonna have to check that one out.
0 frames jab, closest reach
1 frames strong, second closest
2 frames fierce, furthest
3 frames ex, slightly longer than strong, slightly less than fierce
CONDOR SPIRE!!!
Invincibility to projectiles on startup and DEFINITELY change the motion to QCF+K. It’s meant to advance him forward, help build meter and it also helps him get through some irritating jumphappy fools.
Light should be a little faster to startup but move forward a lot slower.
Medium is fine
Fierce should be much faster on startup and move forward faster as well.
EX should go further and have less recovery.
His normals need some work imo
Thrust Peak…yup, df+Strong
Toss throwable box on c. strong back a little, boost frame advantage on block by 1 frame… (I want me a meaty 360 setup, con sarnit!)
Cut down knockback on counterhit c. forward and boost frame advantage on c. hit to +4 (enough time to jab -> light dp if done close)
Back Dash. Fix it. I have never…in my LIFE…seen a character get hit… by an ultra…that goes vertically UP…with no…horizontal…range…IN MY LIFE… until I got hit by Ken with his U1 while backdashing. That does not make me happy.
Ono confirmed a rebalancing, due out this fall/winter. Ideally, I don’t think we really need to see any sort of changes. But it’d be GREAT to see U2’s input be changed. Condor spire chanced to forward DP+kick would be cool, but not really a big deal.
I’m thinking that its not going to be a HUGE set of changes, especially since its free (like me!), but here’s hoping for no nerfs!
Things that I think from a Character Design they will fix
When you do Conder Dive from mid-range, mid height T.Hawk resets into neutral state making the move almost impossible to punish not only on block but on reaction; In fact its completely safe. ( Personally I love it because I know the range so well becuase I practiced it for hours and I abuse the shit out of it)) It’s a good trick but it is also a glitch
Find a way to eliminate Ultra 2 off raw crumple. Geif could do it in Super4 arcade version 1 or 2? He could do Level 2-3 Focus, Focus, Ultra 2 and the almost immediatly patched it, I dont see why not here.
Things I have been wanted even WITHOUT the new changes THINGS THAT MAKE ME REALLY REALLY MAD
In certain situations, none of which I tested fully, SPD whiffs on Chun-Li in the corner if she is crouching. I don’t range, I dont know when- but its enough to drive me NUTS
T.Hawk can thrown out Tomahawk Buster, even on a walk up grab. If you try to reversal it, you can be thrown. I would really like to see that changed somehow so it can be a bit more…viable in all situations? Personally I would love Alpha 3 Hawk DP but thats just me
Standing close round house Whiffs randomly and standing opponants and on auto correct situations. This is because the hitbox is still terrible… I understand not making a hitbox OP but this move has to be fixed…
EX Tomahawk should have projectile invincibility…
I understand T.Hawk is a giant mexican…but his Walk speed is so…not good. His walk speed alone makes come backs for him impossible.
Really the only outstanding things that I see here… Some things you cant avoid… Like Conder Spire being really good and at the same time absolutely terrible.
.
As much as I wish Conder Spire irgonamiclly made sense ( Quarter circle forward+punch?) but its too late to change an input like that…
A DP with no throw invulnerability. Who would greenlight that?
It was HORRIBLE planning to make the condor spire the motion that it is. It’s bad enough that T.Hawk has an unreliable DP, but when you try to do it against a crossup attempt–which any good T.Hawk knows will happen-- you have no choice but to block, or eat the crossup and try to see what they try afterwards and then react to it. The motion CLEARLY interferes with smart gameplay. Worse still is the fact that it is unsafe on hit at most range…ON HIT! Basically the designers MADE T.Hawk as difficult a character to use as possible.
Keep messaging Ono on Twitter regarding buffs for T. Hawk guys. It doesn’t have to be detailed, he just needs to know there are a lot of T. Hawk players out there.
Ugh, how do you message people on Twitter? I still can’t figure it out.
Add “@Yoshi_OnoChin” to your message.
Bring back the down forward crossup for god sack
st roundhouse hitting low
jump back dive without need to use a ex bar
more invencibility for hp dp, i really want to use this like a anti air lmao
faster walk speed
im happy with this changes
My wish list:
[LIST]
[]More intuitive input for U2
[]More intuitive input for Condor Spire
[]More invincibility during Tomahawk Buster startup
[]EX-TB goes through projectiles
[/LIST]
Ok stop what your doing, because Im about to ruin, the style & sounds you’re use too. (Sorry was listening to the humpty dance last night). Everyone here that has said, “OMG that would make him OP” Stop. No it will not. It will make him better. I main both Hakan and T.hawk and From what most of you guys have said can be plausible. However they really don’t need to change the CS input, that’s like having Fei’s DP changed to F, Df, F instead B, DB, B. As far as what I think needs to be added to T.Hawk?
-
CS gains more meter: T.Hawk needs meter especially against his bad mathups (Blanka & Gouken). Have his Condor Spire gain more meter. -
Allow t.hawk to combo CD from his down + Mp air to air move. Or atleast the EX version from that or Air MK. -
GIVE HIM A MOVE THAT ADDS A LOT OF STUN!!! Zangief has Up + Fierce in a n.Jump. Hakan has F.+Fierce. Thawk has none of that. I don’t care what you give it to (standing Fierce, standing RoundHouse..) but every grappler in SF has a normal move that does some heavy stun except T.hawk. hell even the Hybrids (E.honda, Abel, Alex) have it, -
A secondary SPD. Again, Hugo, Hakan, Zangief, Sodom & birdie all have an SPD with Kick. How the hell you let your second (or third) best grappler fall from the waistsides? And don’t give me “we gave him a DP so that covers it. Hell Hugo has a DP, FOUR over heads and Three normal anti airs.
Make the shorcut work for Ex Spire
Better U2 motion
Ex Spire combos from lights
More comboable TB (doesn’t miss on some characters after crossup)
Would be cool… too much?
As one of the top end T. Hawks I think i’m entitled to have a little bit more of an educated say in how T. Hawk plays.
Synkillers post in particular (precursor, nothing personal).
I agree with the buff in meter gaining. He needs it to start closing in keep away characters. That’s fine.
However combo-ing air to air. That’s downright stupid–it wouldn’t make sense from a design perspective. If opponents are jumping at you, you have a few anti-air options. Well spaced condor spires, Tomahawk buster, cr. fierce, and 3/4 screen s. round-house. His air-to-air is meant to drop opponents from long range jumping normals. It wouldn’t serve anything but being an unnecessary move. If you want something better that’s air to air, then add startup invincibility on ex-condor dive. That would shut down most obnoxious jump in normals (ken’s jump forward rh/jump forward fierce). T. Hawk already has a combo-able normal into condor dive–Jumping jab, which is extremely underestimated in terms of usefulness. (training opponents with safe jump splashes after jab SPD’s, then jump jab right above the head into condor dive which do some quality counter hit damage).
T. Hawk doesn’t need a high stun move. One SPD + cross up splash > s. strong xx Fierce Tomahawk does 410 stun. Literally one more ex-condor spire mix up and that’s 1000 stun. Do you know see how powerful that already is? Two cycles of Cross up splash > st. strong xx Fierce tomahawk does 820 stun and 610 damage from THREE MOVES. Just because another character has something doesn’t mean the one that doesn’t has a flawed character design.
**Not to mention SF4 is NOTHING LIKE 3rd strike. Just because they’re part of the fruit department doesn’t make them the same fruit (especially with different mechanics)
Regarding the extra kick SPD. In all practicality, what would this move even do? You already can control screen space, jab SPD leaves you with a perfect setup allowing for safe jumps, option-selects, and enough time to read a teleport. That’s the entire play-style of T. hawk. Play footsies till you can land that jab SPD and start the mixup. However in cases where it’s more difficult to do that, he can play defensively using his anti-airs.
Instead of another SPD, give him a faster startup on fierce condor spire and have it travel one extra tiny square, this now allows you to punish a blocked blanka ball AND would put you in perfect position for an SPD punish on blocked EX balls. One bad matchup has been balanced simply because of that buff.
Then to go one small step further, give him a tincy bit more range on his ex-spire (about 2 tiny squares). This now will allow you to get in on gouken, sagat, and Akuma with relative ease. Granted I’d be fine without an EX-buff, but it’s just a suggestion. Condor dives need to be punishable. Grapplers aren’t meant to have abusable tactics, fundamentally they’re meant to be controlled, precise, and based on reads. Not random damage. (SSF4 Honda head-butts -_- )
The EX-dive is quite similar to the ex-blanka ball, it can be punished, but on half the cast it’s pretty darn safe.
Add in the other subtle changes I listed earlier and you now have a very powerful grappler.
Anyways, just my (2) cents. Nothing personal to SynKiller 
Regards,
iMatt
I see what your saying however if I can hit some one with an up fierce > jab XX GH (Gief) or hit a person with jumping Fierce into F.Fierce (hakan) for the same amout of stun that you just describe with T.Hawk, there is a disconnect. Yes T.hawk is strong, hes a beast but he does not have a normal that has stun, like I said. Look, we’ve seen people abused Giefs move all the time but where has it gotten them besides a funny youtube video? T.hawk at the end of the day doenst need it, however I think he should have it.
What are your thoughts on changing T. Hawk’s Condor Spire input to kicks instead of punches? From time to time, it seems like whenever I try to do a Condor Spire, the shortcuts make a Tomahawk come out instead. Aside from Back-Jump Condor Dive, T. Hawk’s kick buttons are pretty available to map another special onto so that there are less special move input conflicts.
Also, ditto on the first post about giving a lower hit-box to s.HK. Or just in general, make any of his far reaching stand normals have a lower hit-box
I think Hawk is decent now, but he needs a few things to push him over the edge into mediocrity and lordship over the mid-tier.
Tomahawk (pick one)
-faster startup (At least on Medium and Heavy, Light is acceptable-ly crappy)
-any sort of invincibility (Hell, even throw invincibility)
-Better horizontal range. I hate whiffing DP against people that hold up-back any time I don’t guess their jump.
Spire (pick one)
-ANY sort of better input. I’d even take HCF+K
-Safe (-1/-2) when spaced correctly
-Faster startup
Misc
-Low strong or low forward special cancelable
-Low short links into itself or jab
-Faster startup on jump fierce
-Sweep FADC-able on first hit like Guile
-God forbid, a new move
-Oh, and walkspeed. Not sure how I forgot about that. Put him on Abel’s level or something.
I’m shit at this sort of thing, so I know some of these ideas might be too strong. Any of them would make me really happy, especially a cancelable low strong. Ultra 2 doesn’t bug me as much as the rest of you; I’ve gotten used to the input over time. I still hate it, but I don’t NEED it to be changed.
I will not comment on any of the other stuff since it is all mostly agreed upon, but i one i will add
Throw invincibility on EX Dive.
Guile can jump up and throw people(as well as chun) and just toss you out of it. Please make at least the EX throw invisible.
I think one thing that would be really helpful is if T.Hawk had a chain combo, like if Close S.HP was cancelable into Close S.MP.