So that’s it right? EVERY character from 94 to 98 is in it? :tup:
I am looking for more than just “OMG MUSCLEMAN AND DIVE KICK WORK” with no explanation. That’s what Joey gave to me, and I thanked him for it. Up to that point, you hadn’t provided anything detailed.
You never said “if you throw fireballs, air twirl will go over them and get me inside”, you simply said “I will use air twirl to get in” with no explanation as to how. For all I know, you could just randomly be doing air twirl to get inside (which I will flip kick to knock you back on your ass). As far as using it to go over fireballs, are you forgetting just how fast Robert recovers from Ryu Geki Sen? You can’t twirl over them on reaction, you have to anticipate me doing them, in which case I can fake you and anti air your twirl.
The EX punch was a concrete example from Joey, he told me what he will do and why it worked (ie it goes through fireballs).
I can do the same thing that Joey says he will do with Tung, I can block the mixup, break throws if I see them, and step through anything slow you do. I can poke with Robert’s cr.A, which is safe and has extremely high priority. If it hits, combo to fireball -> super or D-Assault and send you back to the other side of the screen with a chunk of your life missing.
Your forward+C overhead? Stepped, countered. QCB+P rush punch? Stepped, countered. Sweeps to upkicks? Stepped, countered. C fireballs? Stepped and COUNTERED. And I don’t have to do anything unsafe, I can basically mash on my cr.A at close range. Seriously, Robert’s cr.A has ridiculous priority, your close range pokes will trade at best.
Ok, you talk about baiting flip kicks with air twirl, how does this work at close range? I would assume you would go flying away from me and put yourself in a position where you can’t counter my flip kick, even though it didn’t hit you.
Furthermore, how does Dive Kick beat my overhead? Seriously, how did you come up with that? You’re not gonna see my overhead and then jump into Dive Kick to beat it. You’d have been better off just rolling. It really sounds like you’re just saying a lot of random stuff now to try and give me too much to respond to, but that doesn’t work if your stuff doesn’t make sense.
See, give me some real examples and explanations as to why your stuff works. You remind me a lot of this player we have in NC who talks about everything as if he will ALWAYS counter you no matter what you do. Sorry man, that has nothing to do with the character, that is a player interaction and it’s not something you can predict like that. So stop with those statements and show me something real. So far Joey’s done a much better job of explaining his viewpoint. You’re a teacher, so you should know that making statements without explaining why is the worst thing you can do when you’re trying to tell someone something.
I’ll just put it like this Blake…I’ll show you this firsthand when I beat your Robert with my Tung next time we meet…all there is to it…
Its not random stuff, Roberts overhead is SLOW AS HELL…seriously…so I can see it on reaction MOST OF THE TIME.
I play differently than Joey…
And you will just see in person how what I say works…because it feels like Theory Fighter now…same like before…no one ever got the picture UNTIL THEY SAW IT IN PERSON…so I am starting to feel like its a waste of time…
You’ll see what my Tung does to your Robert in real life…thats my answer for it.its no worth it to keep debating over it…you’ll see in due time…just remember that Rushdown Tung is just as effective when I win!!!
For real though, I know how fast Robert recovers from fireballs…but assuming you start with fireballs first, throw the doubles, I AM THERE JUST FAST ENOUGH TO PUNISH YOU.
Throwing just one, too easy to jump over and get close, thus throwing two back to back twirl recovers faste enough to get over there…
So you cant whore two back to back in that scenario.
But once again like Its as if you just wana ride Joeys nuts all day (which is what you are doing IMO lol) Thats fine…Joey has seen all I talk about…YOU HAVENT…big difference there. Joey knows I’m right he’s seen what I do as recently as EVO…
You havent seen this as of yet…
But you will soon I assure you! Some things just need to be seen…like Tung in general when you all doubted what he could do. Joey was on the flip side that time…now I am…fine…you’ll see when it hits you!!! :devil:
First to 10, my Tung vs. your Robert how bout it?
Also why havent you refuted Joeys arugment yet Like I say I can see from all this You dont know what you are you saying ‘Well last time I believe joey is better than you anyways so hes right’ LOL. thats the attitude you take I see…once gain it seems you ae on Joeys POV obviously…whatever he says goes it seems…
But you’ll see when I play you how much you have to learn about Tung.
Tell him Joey he cant go based off NEC and FRX…hahahaha!!!
For students like you in my class I enjoy SHOWING THEM …it seems you are more a visual learner, because in truth you can offer a ocunter for what I do, I can offer a counter for what you do…but WHEN I SHOW YOU IN PERSON HOW IT WORKS…no more questions is it???
Thats the route I am taking.!!
Also I’m an ex-teacher…Im doing other things…
Also know that Tungs EX rush punch IS NOT safe…so if you were smart as you say Blake you’d bait it and then punish…but oh no I guess Joey is just totally right no?? 
:lol:
You can bait EX Rush punch…plus it has STARTUP…keep all that in mind. Didnt address that did you Blake? No you didnt so you dont know what you are talking about here, you are just taking something that Joey says as the be all end all. IT CAN BE BAITED AS WELL…I know this as a TUNG PLAYER…ITS NOT SAFE. ONLY TO BE USED IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS, and even then if you know about it it doesnt have as much use…and if I was a Robert player I know the startup of the EX Rush Punches, i’d bait it all day. iF IT MISSES its hella punishable.
Im just playing Devils advocate here.
But I wil use EX rush punches sporadically! TWIRL PUNCH LEAVES ME SAFE if blocked, plus I aint using meter!!!
So even EX Rush punches aint as concrete as you believe but no you didnt talk about that did you???
hey dg im gonna play mary/ash/juza at the nec xi tourney any tips?
i have a feeling they aint so high on the tier list anyway
it always seems that way with the characters i like but i always do well with them
For Mary…watch as man Mary vids as you can…you know about her “dodge” right Ralph?
who is momoko
edit : oh xi
hcb punch u mean?
the move that leads into the little suplex
ash im just gonna gulie it with him
as that seems really effective
juza im not to sure on tho he seems to have alot of effective shit plus his spin into super cancel works really nicely and is real easy to do
Momoko is the skinny new girl part of Team Psycho Soldiers…Its Athena, Kensou, Momoko.
Ralph- YES THAT SHIT IS GODLY…I can only throw you out of its…its too good…
P-SOUL ABUSES THE HELL OUT OF IT LOL.
oh regarding mary’s dodge… it is disgusting in mira
my friend kept saying WHAT THE FUCK WHAT THE FUCK it was hillarious
i wonder if it’s as good in xi
looking forward to UM…
k im hoping to suprise alot of the xi players at nec with really basic effective shit
got my rush character in mary
my turtle character in ash
and my combo of both in juza
if i win against one good snk player then ill be happy lol
gotta start playing it a little and learn some tricks before nec
my work has started to slow down so ill have more time for playing
Ok Lukus, you wanna do the “show me” game instead of being able to discuss online, that’s cool. I will take you up on your first to 10 next time I see you, however long that might be.
Don’t get me wrong, I just feel that someone with a real knowledge of the game should be able to explain their point and say why something works instead of essentially just saying “I will beat you with this”.
I’m not on Joey’s nuts either, I just feel like you could learn from him. You make these long clusterfuck posts and in the end you don’t end up saying much of anything. I didn’t directly address his post yet because yours is the one that caught my eye (again, because it was so long). I sort of indirectly addressed what he was saying in my response to you by pointing out that his in-close defensive style with Tung could be exploited by Robert as well (or any character, for that matter). As far as the EX Punch, I was again using it as an example to contrast his way of explaining things to yours; he told me what move he was using and THEN he gave a clear explanation as to why he did it and how it worked, something that you had NOT done up until that point. You tried in your last post, but it was still kind of vague. I’m pretty sure EX Punch is punishable if it’s blocked, but if he’s doing it through my fireball, it’s not gonna get blocked. So I can’t “spam” my keepout game.
My counter to that is to throw one slow fireball and then throw my next one based on what you will do. In the case of the EX Punch, I will hold off on the next fireball. If I think you’re going to jump, on the other hand, I will either throw a fast fireball to intercept your jump (this is if you don’t do air twirl) or I will anti-air you (if you use air twirl to get in). My assumption is that in order to get a full screen travel on your air twirl, you must do it early and thus you telegraph your intention; on the other hand, I can throw my fast fireball on REACTION to your normal jump to intercept you. This is similar to how I play my projectile game with Hanzou, except it’s a lot more effective in the long run because I’m controlling a larger portion of the screen and I recover much faster from Ryu Geki Sen than I do from Rekko Zans (they also come out faster).
So there you go, I do have a decent idea of what I’m talking about. But anyway, if you don’t wanna discuss it anymore, that’s fine. See you next time around.
Is Gurnee below or above Peoria? I got a pm from your friend saying that I should roll up there with you next time you go.
Ralph- Good shit!!! I will se you at NEC.
Blake- What I am telling you is that there are no absolutes…thats what I am saying.there is a counter for everything and things get to a point before long that its pointless to debate anymore…as I say to everyone “'action speaks louder than words.” Thats where it is now…time for action to show you exactly what I am talking about And yes I do undrstand Hanzo…Hanzo can give Tung problems playing that way, Robert can as well…but I think Robert has less options when you are in on him…Hanzo has more to defend when you are in on him. (Instant DP helps…Robert has to charge for flash kick)
Air twirl can be done high or low…either way…theres more than one type of Air Twirl for Tung. Also what about Tungs C fireball? That eats fireballs for lunch…last time I checked…so keep that in mind. That means you gotta do Haohshooken etc…
C fireball eats even Hanzos Star projectile…
Throw a fast projectile too and I can just AB roll through it…but it is still gonna depend on me being able to read you really…thats the bottom line…all this is great in discussion but it works better IN ACTUAL PLAY…I aint one to discuss forever to death something…it gets to a point like telling people about Young Geese in NeoWave I’m READY TO SHUT THEM UP VIA ACTION.
Which now has happened…no one questions my claims in NeoWave about Young Geese anymore…why? Because action speaks louder than words.
Once discussion turns into Theory Fighter its time to get the controllers/sticks out and START PLAYING.
Also think this way Blake- Start of a match Tung cant use EX Rush punches have you thought of that? Whats he gonna do when he cant use EX Rush punches to get in on you? You control the match…THATS RIGHT…
Air Twirl.
High or Low Twirl will get in…thats also a good answer when he doesnt have METER.
When Tung runs out of meter EX rush punches aint an option neither is AB Roll…and yes how does Tung get meter? Simple Muscleman Tung is the best battery in the game…another good reason to be high tier… …but as you say that requires him getting close. THUS I have perfected uses for the Twirl punch moreso than EX Rush punches…I can use Twirl Parlor tricks a lot more…because it doesnt cost meter!
Then you can start getting smart to punish EX Rush Punches by supercancelling one fireball or TWO with HAOHSHOKOKEN.
As I say there are no absolutes…Haohshoken will miss a HIGH Air Twirl though.
Hanzou kind of has better in close options than Robert, but defensively they work about the same (ie both have invincible reversal moves). It’s harder to get in on Robert, though. He also has better anti air than Hanzou; anything his crouching C doesn’t beat, flipkick will beat (Hanzou must commit to uppercut, which makes him easier to bait). The only advantage I would say Hanzou has is that he is not a charge character, but that is more of a playstyle difference.
And while it’s true there are no absolutes, we are talking about the characters, not the players. A player can overcome the specifics of a matchup, but when you are talking about the characters themselves, the assumption is that players are around the same level of skill. You always talk from the perspective of being able to get around whatever your opponent does, which says that you look at it as you always being able to outplay them (ie saying you will get around my keepout and then rush me down and I will fall apart without being able to figure out your rush). But things aren’t always like that, so you can’t use that as a basis for arguing how good a character is in comparison to other characters; you must judge based on the merits of the characters themselves and the likelihood of what might happen. So ideally, you can get in on my Robert’s keepout due to my lack of diligence or just plain good instincts and then potentially you could mix me up into oblivion and I won’t be able to defend myself. Ideally, it is also possible for me to work my keepout game to continuously knock you back away from me and chunk damage off with projectiles and anti-airs until you fall over and die. REALISTICALLY, either one could happen, so you judge on which scenario is more likely between two players who are roughly equal in skill; I personally think Robert keeping you out successfully (though not perfectly) is much more likely than Tung getting in and then pulling off an unstoppable offense (though he may get in and pull off a good hit, then next rush he gets outguessed and pushed out again and it all starts over). This is the main reason that we’ve been saying this about Tung, because IF TUNG GETS PUSHED OUT OF HIS IDEAL RANGE, HE MUST GET BACK INTO IT OR HE CANNOT FIGHT. It is possible for him to get in from far range, but it is not as easy as you try to make it sound. Conversely, most characters who are ranked S or A rank can fight well from almost any situation; they all have their preferred positions to be in during the fight, but if they get put out of this situation, they don’t have to struggle to get back in that position or lose horribly.
Anyway, in the future just try to keep this in mind. Don’t always look at character matchups as you personally versus someone you feel you could just straight up beat. Try to look at it from the perspective of two good players fighting each other.
I hear yah…I always put myself in the situation when playing as in “What would I do in this scenario.” Thus the answer is already there, especially if I have seen this scenario MANY MANY TIMES…
Who is the tougher matchup you think? Mizuchi or Robert? I think Mizuchi because his projectiles cover MORE of the screen, meaning no EX Rush punches, no Air Twirls…all that gets beaten.
So yes from just two EQUAL level players…a Good Mizuchi will beat a Good Tung…and probably a Robert also by that token will beat a good Tung.
Because yes I agree, the one disadvantage that may keep Tung from being A is that he does have to be in Close to do damage…
Mizuchi definitely has a more potent keepout game than Robert. Combine that with his infinite and it’s a hard comparison.
But yeah, didn’t mean to come down on you like that, I just think proper discussion is much healthier for the community, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.
As far as me versus you (or Joey, for that matter) I honestly think you guys’d probably beat me at this point. I only play Coliseum at tournaments, never really get a chance to practice and I don’t even have a copy of the game anymore (gave it to a friend a few days ago). But I’ll still take you up on that first to 10, maybe between now and then I’ll have gotten back into form.
More news reported at TGS
SS Collection and KOF Orochi collection headed to Wii (unsure if that’s Japan only- probably)
SS2 will be on XBL
That said, I have to learn how to counter keepout Robert as well. Last weekend was embarassing. Then again, owning the game would help- I just don’t want to buy a console yet due to wanting to make sure on future games I want to play.
SS2?! XBL?!!!?
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK ahhhhhhhh
Brent- LOL. Thats funny as hell.
Blake- Yeah I understand now. :tup:
Also something just dawned on me right now…another way to counter keapaway Robert by Tung…Use Tungs HORRIBLE -in- any- other- situation- but-this one -DIVE PUNCH. Dive Punch travels further than Dive Kick plus it has a sLide at the end of it…getting Tung closer.,.and it doesnt cost meter!!! UsE Dive Punch over Fireball spam…
Dive punch knocks down over DiVe Kick…so it has SOME uses like versus Keep way people to get in…knock them down…then start the waekup game in CLOSE. Just thought of this RIGHT NOW.
Is it unsafe? Hell yes and it has no use compared to Dive Kick other than what I just said…FOR TRAVEL and to hit the ground faster.