Picking up this thread, since it came up in casual cvs2 yesterday:
Ken’s kick throw does 2200 damage; Ryu’s does 2100 and Akuma’s does 2000. Factor in the 35% bonus for raged normals, and those numbers become 2970, 2835, and 2700 respectively. The difference between a Ken and Akuma raged throw is therefore less than 1 Ken crouching short of damage (300). It matters, but not that much. I will say that Ken having airthrow is a nice perk.
Also, I checked the damages from the trio’s supers (NickT rocks for posting the bible!). Ken gets most damage from shippu, 6300 (6930 raged). He does have a distinct advantage here, because shippu is much more versatile than Ryu and Akuma’s most damaging supers. Ryu gets 6400 (7040 raged) off shin shoryu, but the spacing is finicky. I still think he can land this in most situations, but technically it isn’t as versatile as shippu. Tatsumaki super does the same damage as Akuma’s shoryu super (below).
Akuma has the weakest guard break game of the three, so this matters less for him. Demon does 7000 damage (7700 raged!), but I literally have never seen an Akuma break guard, then land a raging demon. He’s far more likely to have to resort to his shoryu super, which does 5500 damage (6050 raged), which is a distinct disadvantage.
I’d still take K Akuma over either of the other two shotos >:) He still has the best mobility (teleport+divekick) and the best meterless damage of the three. His oki game is also the strongest, which is really critical since the shotos aren’t going to outpoke too many people on the ground without RC.
(But I’m sorry K-Ryu fans, I’m leaning towards Ken being better now.)
K-Ken takes the cake for me as best K-groove shoto.
What do you guys think are N-Mai’s worst match ups? She just seems so fast and versatile that not a ton of characters could outright dominate her. Some characters will certainly outrange her, like Hibiki, Blanka, and Vega, but her low jump RH is so fast and if she gets cornered she can just wall dive out of there. Also N-groove gives her RC fan, so she gets a slightly riskier mid-range poke. I’d imagine she has some 4-6 match ups, but any 3-7 hard counters?
her bad match ups?
anyone that does more damage and has better normals than her.
IMO K-Sagat bodies her hard.
I don’t know Mai well enough to comment on hard counters. I’m thinking that anybody who can deal with her low jump game and can outpoke her on the ground is going to be problematic. So Sagat, Cammy, Ken?
I could see Bison being a problem as well - hard for her to get in on him, and N Mai doesn’t do enough damage when she does get in.
popoblo
6854
Ouroborus- good call on K-Sagat. I’ve seen videos where Rai plays super patient and just abuses standing fierce for long-distance pokes and AA and owns C-Sagats, but K-Sagat can RTSD better.
Mr. Warzard- I would think Cammy would be tough but RC fan could help supplement her other pokes and low jump game to make it a decent (5-5 or 4-6) matchup. I could see Ken being tricky.
I actually remember Rai would body A-Bison just about every time without doing anything too crazy. Lots of low strongs to poke, low jump RH every now and then, qcb + fierce after blocking the first portion of a head stomp. He would almost always land his raged super by hit confirming close low shorts into super, low jump RH into super, or max range low short, standing jab xx fan super. Also empty low jumps to bait the CC activate.
Granted, I’m recalling match vids from the best Mai player in the world, so of course he makes Mai look better in just about every matchup. I would think Blanka would be a pretty tough matchup, maybe one of her worst.
Any wisdom, @Buktooth?
I think Mai beats Ken the same way Vega beats Ken.
jump speed and jumping hk are too good in this match. ken can’t really throw fireballs or poke with standing hk (slow start up, tons of recovery). her jump speed and angle of her jumping hk makes it hard for ken to dp. its probably easier if mai is in a low jump groove but then, she gains low jump hk.
standing hp anti airs really well. she also has the fastest sweep in the game tied with rock. Only difference is hers is cancellable and safer on block. Probably more range too. (Rocks lead to nastier set ups though)
@popoblo Cammy may not be a hard counter, but she outpokes Mai on the ground, and doesn’t have too hard of a time against Mai’s low jump game. Damage also favors Cammy.
re:Bison, it’s a K Mai vs N Mai thing. K Mai’s access to two level 3s/round really helps vs Bison. Without access to raged level 3s, the damage skews too heavily in Bison’s favor IMO.
I think Mai fares better against Blanka because he’s a fat, tall-ish character who will have more trouble dealing with her low jump game.
@Ouroborus the difference is that Vega’s ground game forces Ken to rely on riskier stuff; Ken outpokes Mai (RC funky kick and cr.MK primarily), and RC funky kick snuffs low jumps and attempts to run in. Damage also is in C Ken’s favor, at least.
A-Bison. A good N/K- Morrigan as well as N-iori can also give her some trouble, though not 7-3.
Why do you think Morrigan and Iori are good against Mai? Those matchups seem pretty even to me. I don’t see any significant advantages on the ground over Mai. As oki-heavy characters, I would think Mai’s ability to RC wall dive to get out of wakeup mixups would cause them problems.
popoblo
6859
good call on the Cammy matchup, that is probably at least 6-4 in Cammy’s favor or even close to 7-3. I went into training mode and had Cammy spam the shit out of standing RH and there’s literally not much Mai can do against it other than RC fan. Otherwise, low MP gets stuffed, low RH sweep doesn’t have the range, and low jump RH gets stuffed as well.
against Blanka, the low jump game is a good call if he doesn’t have a charge to RC ball. low MP is a pretty fantastic move since it stuffs his low fierce, his slide, and even his low RH in some instances. It would be spammable like Rose’s low MP in Alpha 2.
As for Mai vs A-bison…
check out 13:45, 18:30, and 24:30 (and ESPECIALLY 25:05 for some cool shit) for Rai’s K-Mai vs A-Bison. Again, not saying she owns Bison or anything, but it will at least give you a better idea of why I’m saying A-Bison is not a bad counter matchup. It’s also a video of the best K-Mai in the world playing, so Rai obviously makes her look that much better, haha.
good discussion!
HeaT
6860
this is really interesting. theoretically i can see s:ryu better than k:ken, but in practice i dont think so.
im outi
Roberth
@popoblo yeah man, always good to talk about cvs2. By that I mean how the game is actually played, instead of “yeah, cvs2 is soooo great.”
@13:45 Gunter is my guy, but all he did was guess that a fireball was coming and get punished for it repeatedly.
@18:30 I loved the vertical fire move to punish the devil reverse. Wrong guess on the cc activate. Rai’s JDing had more to do with winning this round than anything else.
@24:30 That was some cool shit. Whiff crouching strong to bait activate, level 3. Thing is, N Mai won’t often be using level 3s. Especially not on a guess like that. She could RC a fan or ryuenbu, but reward is much worse.
My two thoughts from the video are that Bison needs to be patient against Mai until he gets meter, and that Rai’s success with K Mai is hard to separate from how good of a K groove player he is.
I will say that Bison doesn’t outpoke Mai on the ground, so in that sense it’s kind of an even fight. I just think if Bison is patient, and sits back to build meter, it would be hard for Mai to put significant pressure on Bison. Like, a lot of characters have normals that outrange bison’s, so you can either work his guard bar, or get him to guess with a RC psycho crusher or scissor kick. It seems all Mai can do is try to zone him with fireballs.
Maybe her zoning is good enough to get a lead on bison when he’s meterless? I can’t say I know either way. But that seems like a tough fight.
@18:30 does demonstrate that Mai has a 1 frame punish using low RH against a 1 hit bison short scissor kick. Not saying it radically shifts the matchup in her favor, but some characters don’t have any type of reliable punish for a 1 hit short scissor kick.
in regards to your 24:30 comment, if I was playing N-Mai with 2 stocks and saw A-Bison had a full meter, I’d just about always pop a stock to have a level 3 handy and also to start empty short jumping out of his AA CC range to bait a trip guard CC. But agree that a RC fan or ryuenbu is not worth it in regards to risk/reward.
I don’t have extensive personal matchup experience with Mai to say either way how the ground game would go. I’ve seen enough Rai vids to see he’ll mainly punish Bison doing specials to build meter (low fierce xx fan to punish blocked RC psycho crusher; JD into low RH against 1 hit scissor kicks OR 1 frame low RH punish like I mentioned earlier; fan against a devil’s reverse; against a head stomp follow-up, he does a qcb + p and it catches Bison surprisingly (and just RC it in N-groove). Then the ground game is lots of low strongs and low RH (especially run-up low RH which is very fast). Once Bison is scared to press buttons then he works the throw game.
Random thought: Personally I really like the idea of N-R2 Blanka/Mai/Chun as a team.
Good points re: Mai’s bison options. I hadn’t noticed the 1-hit scissor punish.
That’s a good N-groove team, with the R2 blanka up front being the most controversial thing. I can see it being good vs A-Groove, if you’re comfortable with Blanka vs the usual A-groove batteries. I don’t think it’s as good an idea vs C or K grooves though.
Also, just as an aside, interesting to note that Mai probably does well in N as both battery and as a user. Meter gives her level 3 opportunities, as well as more chances to use her awesome counter roll. Too bad her meterless damage is so mediocre.
This game needs to be ported already.
Nick_T
6865
I personally was messing around with N - Blanka/Mai/ Chun R2 before reloaded. Worked well.
popoblo
6866
great minds think alike!
@Mr.Warzard, i always really liked N-Blanka in theory and as a mixup to my A-groove team, but I had difficulty landing his super well as an anchor and would sometimes die with 3 full N-groove stocks sitting there. that’s why i’d put him up front so I could build a ton of meter, use level 1 ground shave supers on wakeup if needed, and not have to worry about landing a level 3 as much. Also, if R2 N-Blanka does work up front and puts the opponent in a hole, then Mai can runaway and be a pest, which is her best play style IMO. Taking the “runaway after building a lead” idea one step further, R2 N-Blanka/Mai/Rolento (or Rolento/Mai) would be a legit team and Mai and Rolento wouldn’t have issues using the meter.
peace
I have no beef with Blanka up front - I fully support putting a top tier character up front so you can go nuts and have a chance to get a lead.
By giving up the R2 anchor, you’d be going all in on your plan A with that team, with virtually no chance to come back if something goes wrong in the first round. I’m sure you could make it work, but I don’t recommend it. Especially not in N-Groove, which in general is a bad fit for runaway (lack of stored meter and any air defense options hurts).
Or just man up like old Houston folk and 4 ratio k-sagat. That shit was scary in tournament lol.
Is it just me, or are link combos inconsistent? I’m trying to practice rock’s 2lk 5hp link and it feels like the timing is all over the place
