Analog controls would slow 2D fighters down. It takes a bit more time, muscle memory and execution to do a light tilt on an analog stick than a simple tap on a digital joystick.
I have an anecdotal 10 year old nephew who is completely obsessed with everything Mortal Kombat. I didn’t introduce him to the game. He will also play the hell out of Street Fighter with me. Little kids like the idea of beating the crap out of each other.
i only read up to this post and i had to quite it for being so smart and and i also wanted to throw in my own hat to the conversation.
to the OP:
you have a great thought here about newer controls for newer games. have you thought about mobas at all? you know hon,dota,LOL?
i say this because if you loosely define fighting game elements like I and the quoted post do, it opens up huge new worlds as far as where analog controls could be used. for instance, one reason why certain mobas are so popular right now is that imho they combine 3 aspects of the 4 most popular genres in video games:
to me the most popular genres are:
FPS
Fighting
RPG
Racing
right now it can be easily seen that mobas combine aspects of FPS: clicking on heroes and creeps takes the ability to “aim” your spell cursor at an opponent/teamate/creep, and how quickly and accurately a person can do this gives them an advantage against certain heroes/opponents… like getting the "jump"on an opponent is usually a huge advantage simply cause the person jumping gets spell priority and huge burst damage before his opponent does… it gets deeper but ill leave it at that for simplicitys sake.
FIGHTING: can be seen in mobas through spell combos and spacing which are, once again, extremely important: spacing is important cause you dont want to be in range for your opponents spell combo, yet you do want to be in range for yours… just like a fighting game. also in mobas you just like fighting games have the ability to control where your opponent can move to, to a certain extent, as well as having control over where you yourself move to.
spell combos are important cause depending on the situation and whether or not you are 1v1 or in a team battle(or versus a certain hero), you will want to cast your spells in a different order… and scenarios can change VERY quickly, so this isnt always an easy task.
RPG: the fact that characters in most mobas have to “level up” both their spell skills as well as items and the actual character itself is a huge aspect of an rpg, only it takes about 30-45 minutes to complete an entire game whereas an rpg takes hours upon hours… so it can be seen that mobas are kinda more like action rpg oriented in their take on the average rpg elements… think of it like fast food rpg.
now one of the most popular mobas at this time is LOL… its free to start and has a deeper rpg system than any other popular moba since it has mastery and rune points and a “slow” rpg style of leveling up the players avatar.
so, i showed the 3 basic elements of mobas as they are today… however one of the 4 aspects is left out and os the reason im making this post:
RACING!!
wait, how can racing be combined into a moba?
actually i think it would be realtively easy as its already been done to a certain extent… case in point mario kart,twisted metal, and R.C. Pro Am:
this moba would control like rc pro am (this would be best for a multiscreen moba type game), its strategy would be like mario kart (lots of skill shots) skill shots are non heat seeking spells… ie they can miss, and even when aimed at an opponent one would have to “lead” the opponent in order to actually hit them. lvl 6 ultimates woud be heat seeking, OR they could be extremely powerful skill shots.
the analog control now becomes very obvious… this is a racing style moba afterall, and while fps skills such as aiming would be needed in order to actually hit an opponent… defense could be accomplished by really good movement like powerlides, drifts and whatnot, so analog control would go amazingly with this type of game:
imagine seeing an opponent at half hp, half a map away and kicking your turbos to get there as fast as possible, yet having to dodge the incoming fire of enemy teammates or combatatnts to do it… when you get there you execute a perfect powerslide, juking your opponents skillshot perfectly and at the same time throwing your own skill shot to ultimate heat seeker combo for the kill, and then run your ass off back to your base… this type of gameplay would be abundant in this type of game and RPG elements such as bying better tires,misslies,armor etc would be sweet, also one could “level up” there driver just like LOL’s summoner, and cars would have different stat points such as some would be fast yet weak, some would be slow yet strong, there could be spells that do all sorts of carzy things like an emp pulse might stun electric hover cars for a bit, whereas mini nuke might take out anything but a tank, there could be slows, oilslicks like spyhunter… etc etc etc.
and analog control would make all of this even more precise and would be a necessary gameplay element.
anywho i think its atleast a cool concept… which i had designer/programming skills… i’d make a ton of money off this idea.
-dime
The way I look at things, controllers are extensions of the games. Games are not centered around the controls, but the controls are centered around the game. (Obvious statement, but it is still very important to keep in the back of your head.) That being said…
You need to look at why other games are as successful as they are; putting innovation to the side for a moment. Street Fighter IV for example. It has a delicate balance of strategy, execution, and reaction. It’s a thinking man’s game, very close to a real time game of chess. The strategy is what keeps people coming back to Street Fighter. The execution is the counter balance to that. In order to execute that strategy you have to practice. To play against execution you need to know how to react. Being able to recognize situations/setups is crucial to the strategy. It goes full circle. Execution is the tool to fuel strategy, which fuels competition–which is the overall goal of any fighting game. Another polar opposite example is the Fight Night series. Using dual analogs to control the Left and Right Limbs. It makes sense from a design perspective, but it takes away from the experience itself. Not only do you need to use dual analogs to control punches, you need worry about 3D movement. Being able strafe around an opponent or corner them. Trying to use to two hands, move, evade, attack, block, and react becomes very convoluted. It’s a lot for our brains to process. Granted anything can be conquered with enough vigilance, but I promise it wouldn’t succeed all too well in terms of sales/popularity. The reason Street Fighter and Tekken work is because they map movement to a single motor function. If you have to do more than one kind of movement with a single hand you’re going to confuse the user. Especially if you have to worry about four separate limbs as well as dual hand movement.
Now looking at a game like Call of Duty, probably thinking, oh that game has movement, aiming, shooting, and reactions all at the same time. That’s partially true. The biggest distinction is that aiming is controlled on an X/Y axis. Essentially aiming the screen/reticle to center around your opponent. In between this aiming you only worry about one button at a time. Shooting, crouching, grenade, etc. A full action is mapped to a button with no specific timing required. Trying to move a character in a 3D space with both hands and execute precise hits/combos simultaneously requires extreme dexterity. It tries to focus on too many aspects. If the user is too busy worrying about trying to navigate the screen space and execution then the game becomes too hard–strategy goes out the window. A similar analogy, it’s like like trying to draw a circle with one hand and draw a triangle with the other. Very few people can do that, but the vast majority can’t handle that level of split-braining. (made up term ftw.) The way new games have conquered this to a minimal degree is motion controls. Making two hands limbs so you don’t have to think about buttons, but since it has to track your movements you need to use a controller to navigate the game-space.
That’s what keeps analog controllers around. It focuses on only a few aspects, becoming an extension of the game vs a controller.
Hope that helps a little.
For the sakes of SRK and why we are here, lets toss out The FPS, Sports, RPGs, Racing. Obviously many of those games benefit from analog joysticks.
But most of those games expand outside the scope of SRK in general and many would be inappropriate or difficult to use a Arcade joystick.
For the sake of argument and being on topic Call of Duty, Halo, Final Fantasy XIV, LA Noire (and many others) have no place on this site, this board or thread.
Yes I know Racing games are found in Arcades but they already have Steering Wheel Controllers so the discussion of sticks for Racing is pointless.
Make a how to build your own Steering wheel controller and not an analog stick for racing games and I might listen. Seriously though Racing is right out as racing games isn’t a focus or even a major interest here at SRK. Its like auguring the use of Turbo on a controller here, you aren’t going to win.
But at SRK were more concern over Arcade games, which covers Classic Donkey Kong and Pac-Man all the way to Street Fighter IV AE and MK 9.
With a exception of a few, none use analog, and those who do, the home console versions of those games do not benefit from the inclusion of analog.
Arcade games include plat formers (Super Mario Bros), Shmups (shoot em ups, example Gradius) Puzzle games, (Tetris and Puzzle Fighter), side scrolling beat-em-ups (Streets of Rage, Metal Slug, Golden Axe, River City Ransom) and Fighting games (do I really need to give examples here).
Out of all the Arcade game genres main focus here is Fighting games.
Only fighting game that really takes advantage of analog is Smash bros, and even then the analog controls are optional.
Reasons Fighting games never will leave Digital controls completly:
why make a system proven to work more difficult and unintuitive?
Fighting requires precise controls, even if you can carry over the d-pad functions to the left analog stick, the inclusion is superfluous.
Make the actions such as L, M and H kicks and Punches analog is ridiculously unintuitive, no to mention games that use, tags, blocks and such as actions too.
Cost: Compare a cost of a JLF or LS 32 about $20 to the only analog joystick on the market, LS 64 I believe which cost $65.
Hardware, wiring a analog stick is often more difficult than a digital. Not to mention all the PCBs on the market for arcade sticks for fighting games use digital controls. Yes the TE can accept the joystick to control LS or RS, but the actual input still a digital input (as the PC/ Console only wants X/Y coordinates). And the joystick for the TE still a JFL a digital joystick.
Analog sticks were popularized by 3d gaming, and I think in order for an analog stick to be effective, it would need to be applied to a truly 3d fighting game. Something like Power Stone would work great built from the ground up around analog movement. Lightly pressing the stick to move in close quarters, pressing all the way to move at full speed.
The issue is that with most games that use Analog movement, most people just ram the stick all the way. Metal Gear series let’s you emphasize stealth by lightly pressing the stick, but other than that, most games have phased it out. It’s more of just something there to show attention to detail. So it all depends on the game and how it’s developed.
Again I ask please lets leave non-arcade games out of the discussion, as the debate of analog in Halo, Metal gear, CoD MM2, and so on is getting off the point.
Also leave out racing games as there analog controller is a steering wheel not a joystick.
I played from the Tekken, Soul Calubur, Power Stone, Smash Bros. series All 3D or 3d-like Fighters, all used or have the option of Analog.
My opinion Out of the whole Tekken series only Tekken 3 on the PS1 seems to utilize analog well, even then the analog stick control was not so precise as it had a clear distinction over a d-pad or digital joystick (still functioned as 8 way directions & no real speed control for angle of tilt on the analog). Just the left analog was easier on my thumb than the PS1 d-pad.
Smash Bros did try to bring something new with the analog as you had possible more than 8 directions (only fighting game that used more than 8)
but then again, I seen successful players for smash bros use the d-pad and win at tournaments. One local tournament I went to the winner used the “apparently” half broken and nasty looking, “house owned” Wii remote to beat out both stick players and players than used the game cube game pad. The Wii Remote, No analog, motion sensor isn’t used other than menus for the game. Just the Wii Remote’s D-pad and the 1,2 A and B buttons, they guy may as well played against everyone with a NES pad.
Power Stone the only 3D fighting game series Capcom did right. Yes you can hit the analog lightly for slight movement, but you can duplicate the same movement with a digital joystick. Much of the finer points of the analog controls although seems nice on the screen but no tactical advantage in the game, agianst the computer or human player. Pitty too since Sega Dreamcast Controllers analog stick uses Hall effect sensors instead of the pots uses in PlayStation, Xbox and Game Cube controllers, which produce a smoother analog stick. http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/dreamcast3.htm
What would make analog successful for a fighting game
[LIST]
[]More than 8 directions (and be useful) Does-not /should-not need to be 360 degrees of movement.
[]distance of tilt or throw effects speed/shape of the character movements
[]have a clear tactical use of that precise control mention in the first 2 points
[]a on screen perspective that make this all clear to the user/ gamer
[*]For all the above to be intuitive and simple to use
[/LIST]
Also add that Game controls works the best when they are simple to use, simple to learn, but difficult to master.
Provide a actual fighting game that means all the above criteria, then I would agree
This effect, simple controls, difficult to master game was done better in the late 70s early 80s arcades with 1 digital joystick and maybe 1 push button than all of the complexity of the PS3 Dual Shock or Xbox 360 game pads. Almost everyone here on SRK seen the end credits to a Street Fighter game, out of all those people who here cleared all the stages of the original Donkey Kong before they started to repeat? I would even accept claims to the NES version which has 1 stage less than the arcade.
Indeed, some of the kids of my friends are into mashing on arcade sticks as well, though I get to take the blame for introducing them to the games. I’m not saying that kids will never play these games, I’m just saying that for every kid I know that loves digital fighters I know at least three more that have never seen or touched an arcade stick, and aren’t at all interested in it. Typically the latter group, if they do end up trying a fighting game, will as their first instinct pick up their PS3/360 gamepad and fiddle with the analog stick, playing fighting games as if the d-pad never existed.
Heck, I even have friends my age that will insist that the analog stick is superior for games like Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat. That kind of thing gives me reason to worry about the future of digital controls.