I’m not saying “ban the hitbox”. I’m just saying this thing shouldn’t go completely unchecked.
Wow man, what are you doing? This doesn’t sound like legitimate concern, it sounds like a witch hunt.
Some of us may remember that this has NEVER BEEN POSSIBLE on an official Hit Box. We made sure to it that our PCB allowed no such thing to happen. We’ve even made video after video after video trying to explain that it’s not possible. Yes, on some homemade Hit Boxes that didn’t have our PCB it was potentially possible, but we never sold a product that was capable of it on console. Also, stock pads could also hold left and right at the same time as well as modded sticks, which were impossible to detect as all you’d have to do is wire it differently, which you’d never see unless you opened the stick. If people wanted to abuse SOCD, they would have been doing it already on the controller they wanted to play on instead of buying a Hit Box.
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Aris admits in that exact video that he is 100% biased to stick and the only reason he even accepts that people play on PAD of all things is because tournaments are held on consoles. If Aris had his way, everyone would be required to play on stick regardless if something else was fair just because that’s what he likes, and I personally feel that’s a terrible way to run the community.
Also, a Hit Box being way worse than a macro? That’s ridiculous. A macro can do an entire combo for you flawlessly without fail every time without you even having to do anything, while a Hit Box can allow you to perform some moves faster. How is that WAY worse than a macro? With a Hit Box you still have to input EVERY direction and attack manually, which creates the possibility of human error on top of greatly differentiating it from an automation program. I fail to see how being able to perform some moves faster is cheating in any way. If speed is ban worthy why don’t we ban Desk from competing? Clearly he is an unfair advantage to himself because his execution is godlike and he can do things no one else can do.
This is going to sound completely backwards to what I’ve been saying before, but I don’t care, my point stands. Is this or is this not the fighting game community? I could have sworn that this was the same group of people who were willing to exploit WHATEVER it takes to win. David Sirlin even wrote an article about PLAYING TO WIN. Now, if there was a controller that somehow magically made winning much easier, why would this same community not use that? I don’t remember there being a code of honor that a player must use the same tools, walk 10 paces, then turn around at the count of 3 so that all matches are perfectly fair. Some people could argue that stick is unfair for pad players, but has anyone ever seriously made that argument? No. In fact, there was never any worry because pad was just seen as WORSE than a stick. It was always “Get a stick and stop complaining you scrub, it’s all fair.” Even when WE at Hit Box first came onto the scene, that’s all we ever got for months. “This controller is terrible, no one is going to ever play on it. Im keeping my stick.”
So now that something could potentially be better than stick you want to ban it? How is that fair? Why is it when stick was the innovation everyone had to move on, but now that something else is here and makes things easier we have to ban it because of tradition? What is this nonsense? I don’t care if the games were made with Hit Box in mind, the games were still made to accept inputs from a controller and that’s all Hit Box is doing. There is no magical 9th direction you can do on Hit Box that you can’t on stick.
Hit Box does not do anything the game itself does not allow you to do. It does not change how attacks work, it does not change frame data, it’s just a different way to play the game. There is nothing you can do on Hit Box that you can’t do on stick or pad, just extreme exaggeration. A triple forward input is possible on every controller, a quarter circle is possible on every controller, everything is possible on every controller. Just because one controller makes what would have been an awkward input easier should not make it ban worthy.
As an MK player, the hitbox allows one of the characters in the game, Kabal, to take immense advantage of the relatively easy rhythmic inputs to get his instant air fireball out as soon as he gets up off the ground and do it consistently. It also allows him to cancel his command dash with extreme speed.
Like Aris was saying, the Hitbox makes these pretty hard tactics on a regular stick or pad into something that takes about 10 minutes to consecutively get good at and pretty much turns the rest of the cast into his personal whipping boys (and girls) who can do nothing about it because no character has the tools to fight against a stream of instant air fireballs, not to mention that he has probably the best close range game of the whole cast.
It really does seem very very cheap, and I’d hate to say I’m whining because relatively average players are winning big tournaments simply because an advanced character turns into the easiest, most effective character to master in the whole game. It is ridiculous.
But there are plenty of Kabal players who play on stick and pad who can do the exact same thing. Michelangelo and Online Tony are clear examples as well as others like Erik Warda. IAGB is not a Hit Box exclusive technique, anyone can do it with practice. Sure you can learn it on Hit Box in a relatively short amount of time, but just that alone isn’t going to win you the match, you still have to be an amazing player on top of that. Besides, it’s not the Hit Box that is so abusive, it’s the IAGB. NRS has been listening to the community and making patches accordingly, if enough people voiced their concerns over IAGB it could very well get toned down.
It’s still possible to beat kabal even with a Hit Box hammering out IAGB’s as well, CD Jr. took down REO with Jax. It’s not about the controller, it’s about the player. If IAGB is a problem then complain about that, but the controller doing IAGB is not the problem.
This is the most ridiculous thread I have ever read. As an organizer, this thread makes me want to give up on the community. It’s that bad. Please, don’t ever post something like this without doing research on the subject. And don’t use a video that is CLEARLY biased (it’s almost painful how biased it is) as your argument.
Thanks for clearing up any misconceptions. (People were saying it was an “old model” issue, not a “home made” issue)
I’m not gonna start arguing about this subject with you, since you have an interest to be concerned about it more than anyone anyway.
It’s actually a combination of both. Yes, you can do IAFb on the pad, and I do agree that it’s cheap, but I think what helps is that it is an advanced technique and nowhere near as easy to do in MK as it is in SF or other games of the sort. The problem is the hitbox takes the execution part out of it, so you get this really powerful technique without putting in any of the execution that is probably the reason for the weird input of the move. Same with his dash cancelling. His dash is cancellable on any frame, but no pad player can get the consistent, constant frame trap offense that a hitbox can offer simply because you have to to recognize doing the input then press the button. Hitbox allows you to do that in a simple 1-2-3 motion.
I understand you are very passionate about it, and I do think this controller is a very neat concept, but it’s taking the execution out of a character whose most advanced techniques are hard to do because they are so good.
In all fairness before we started using our own version of the Cthulu PCB we were using a PS1 pad, and while it would not give you SOCD on console, at UFGT7 there was apparently some issues on a Supergun, which we could not even have perceived would be an issue. Other than that, there was no way to use left+right on a Hit Box.
I understand how you feel, but again the Hit Box is not taking the execution out of it, it just makes it easier because the inputs are less obtuse since you have access to each individual direction. You still have to perform well, and even REO has shown that there is still human error to take into consideration, but it’s not as difficult.
had I known, I would’ve invested more time on keyboard. That’s great and all that it doesn’t happen on YOUR PRODUCT. But that’s the thing, you you don’t have a corner on the market and I just as easily buy a bunch of buttons and make one myself. The issues nothing to do with the product you are making and all to do with what can be done with the concept.
Discussing the abusiveness of IAGB is pretty silly considering that the issue in question is not REO’s use of it but that with some practice you have a significantly better controller than everybody else. I wonder how hard it would be to do sentinel’s fly/unfly combos in MvC2 when I don’t need to put the stick in neutral ever? I would have to get all the other stuff down first but, seems like that would be easier.
Before people shit on Tataki and Aris for it, it is an actual valid concern. But at this point its gonna have to be like the gems, let it rock and see what happens.
…But isn’t “making it easier” ALSO taking the execution out of it? Erik Warda and Mike are great players, but I think even they would tell you that doing 8 gasballs in a row that are immediately off the ground is not exactly achievable, and I think any one who plays MK can understand why it’s not a good idea to make it easy: no one in the cast was designed to handle a jet stream of fireballs that is not really doable by any human.
The Hitbox “makes easy” a technique that breaks the game. That alone is, in my opinion, worthy to consider looking at the controller with a little more scrutiny. For the record, I have played often on a Hitbox, and it’s a fine product otherwise, but I really think it’s not a very good idea for competitive fighting games.
It is possible to make any controller capable of hitting left and right at the same time. Even a stick can be wired to hold left and right at the same time and it would be virtually impossible to tell. If people WANTED to abuse it, they would have been already. Doesn’t seem like people want to, however.
And again, if Hit Box is so great and clearly better than everything else, why is that a problem? I brought up the point that when stick was considered the best controller no one had a problem with it even though pad players were considered to be getting the raw end of the deal, but now that stick could possibly not be the best anymore there’s a problem? That’s a pretty mean double standard if you ask me. The community will abuse everything it takes to win but any controller that isn’t a stick?
I’m still putting my foot down saying these are banned in Jojo’s. As they cause game breaking glitches that are impossible before you bring up the hol horse glitch. That glitch is not the combination of left+right since it still happens on any version of fba and mame(only re-record emulators allow simultaneous opposing directions on inputs).
It is a very real, very valid concern. People (such as myself) have made their own SLAC’s (StickLess Arcade Controllers) and not realized (or if they’re pricks, they do and don’t care) that the HitBox is made to prevent SOCD’s in their controllers. A way that people who build their own SLAC’s can get around SOCD’s is actually found right here on SRK, and is something that EVERY TOURNAMENT SUPERVISOR should start looking for. I myself do not use my SLAC because I don’t have the chip to make it SOCD-compliant yet, so I refrain from using it competitively until I can get it fixed. If anyone entered a tournament with a SLAC, even if it’s HitBox branded, it will have to go through an SOCD check to ensure it is legal to use.
No, making something easier does not mean taking the execution out of it. You still have to manually do the inputs and human error has been proven to be an issue. It’s not a free IAGB, you still have to work to get it perfect every time. It’s not like you just press a button and it does it for you.
And wouldn’t something that makes inputs easier be BETTER for competitive fighting games? One would think that anything that made you a better player would be excellent.
in time all sticks will be replaced with buttons, and sticks will exist solely for nostalgic purposes
john choi will be the only player seriously still using one
See, here’s where I would argue that inputs are more often than not made the way they are specifically because the risk/reward is going to get thrown out of whack. A good example is the SPD motion in any SF game. It’s a 360 precisely because the move is so powerful (and tradition, but that’s a whole 'nother can of worms lol). If it was a simple QCF motion or something similar, I think that the move would have to be heavily reconsidered.
Again, a large part of it has to do with how abusable Kabal’s tools are in the grand scheme of things, but like another poster brought up, having a a controller that automatically makes the input way easier then for anyone doing it on a pad or a stick is an issue.
I’m sorry, I’m going to have to come in on this nonsense biased bullying against Hit Box. Yeah, a no name coming through, but I’m not blinded with non logical distaste for the product because it doesn’t fit my opinion.
It’s not an issue with the Hit Box, it’s an issue with the community unwilling to accept any sort of ‘change’ towards an obviously better alternative. In short, people are internally feeling inferior that they’ll somehow get bodied if they run across a Hit Box player, purely because said player is using a Hit Box.
The Hit Box doesn’t do anything that a regular Pad or Stick cannot do, it makes it a bit more easier and efficient. Which is why exactly Arcade Sticks are used predominantly over Pad in general. It makes awkward motions a bit more easier on our hands, and it also makes some motions a bit more challenging.
Here, I’ll quote from the Official Arcade Stick Faq from SRK the supposedly “mecca” of the “The Fighting Game Community” why players should *use *a Stick.
Well, that sounds like the same philosophy that Hit Box has behind it’s product. Their tag line is to ‘Take Control’, so you can have a more precise and fluid control than a Stick AND a D-Pad. The core appeal of the Hit Box is having **access **to the 4 directional buttons so it’s useful for many advanced techniques.
Any of that ring a bell to you nay sayers? It’s the same concept and idea that the Stick is being used over Pad. It makes motions and techniques on a Pad EASIER on a Stick.
The Hit Box is a step forward to the standard that Sticks set, by the reasoning Aris uses and most people flaming Hit Box on being banned, should also be standing right up and saying to ban Arcade Sticks as well.
Hell, Arcade Sticks SHOULD be banned, am I right? Seeing as most modern day Tournaments are held on consoles where the default control of choice is a Pad, and not Stick, it should clearly be banned because: A) Not everyone has access to an Arcade Stick, B) Pad is inferior to a Stick, therefore Arcade Sticks should be banned.
On the argument of REO, and the ill informed person saying the Hit Box made REO (a subpar player MK9 apparently) win with a good character. First off, do a little research on who REO is. REO is the Justin Wong of MK, he’s been a talented player ever since he picked up the franchise and has won events in previous MK games and even against UMK3 Old Schoolers. REO is not a person you’re snoozing on, or a skilless player.
The instant Air Fireballs are supposed to be done low to the ground, does it matter how low he does them? The idea behind them is to make them low enough so they act as an Anti-Air and a grounded projectile. REO doing them any lower with a Hit Box doesn’t change the fact that the projectile properties are acting as an Anti-Air/Ground projectile, any more than Online Tony (Stick), Erik Wara (Stick), or Michael Angelo (Pad) doing them, the IAFB still has 2 properties, it’s going to hit you regardless. Get over that weak argument.
Also to note, no matter how fast a Hit Box can assist a player in inputs, they ARE limited to the FGs gameplay. A 7 frame Down 1 in MK9, isn’t going to come out any FASTER or SLOWER on PAD, STICK, or HIT BOX, no matter how fast I mash or input the command.
You are at the end, no matter what type of controller, restricted to the FG’s animation and frame properties. So cut the crap, about Hit Box being to fast.
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REO was doing IAFB on Day 1 of MK9.
I expected better, and I’m not even a core part of the FG community. I didn’t know to be considered a ‘Skillfull’ player, you have to be sloppy, not efficient, and struggle by making things difficult for yourself to get your combos out when playing a Fighting Game.
Boy was I wrong!
Since you were the one who brought up the SPD, let’s talk about that, and how much harder it is to do on Hit Box. Because it’s a move that requires a rotation it is clearly designed for a circular spinning controller. Because the Hit Box uses buttons and is as precise as it is, it takes a ton more effort and has a higher rate of failure on Hit Box.
Tapping individual directions is easier on Hit Box because it’s easier to tap your finger in such a manner, so inputs that are back, back or down, down, or forward, forward are easier, but more extensive inputs like half circles, tiger knees, and 360’s/720’s are much harder on Hit Box because that kind of rolling takes a lot more effort. Everyone is acting like the Hit Box is flawless and just makes everything you do perfect every time after no amount of time of training, learning, or practice when in actuality it has other benefits and weaknesses just like the stick does.
Yes, things that require tapping directions are easier on Hit Box, but rotations are MUCH easier on stick and pad. It’s a preference and it only benefits certain characters in certain games. Mortal Kombat, being a game that does not require diagonals for inputs and has a lot of input tapping, greatly benefits from the Hit Box, but say a grappler character in Street Fighter is much harder to play on Hit Box. Again, it’s an issue of the move itself being too good, not the controller. If Kabal is broken on Hit Box he is broken on every other controller as well, the character’s tools do not change depending on what controller you’re using.
Question, what was the reasoning behind putting the ‘Up’ direction at the bottom?