Not at all.
The number of people who’ll be using them in tournaments will be very low compared to the number using more ‘traditional’ controllers. Just get anyone who wants to use a hitbox style controller to declare it to a member of tech staff for inspection. Once given the all clear then they can go on their merry way.
The real problem is people with hacked arcade sticks & pads, which is just too impractical to check each one and enforce.
I totally agree with you amp on it not being a hitbox issue. Like I said in an earlier post, I think the best way to deal with that is to show precisely what can be done on a pad. (I was playing on sunday on stick for the first time in two months, and I don’t really feel like doing marvel on a stick ever again). If someone wants to play “devil’s advocate” at final round and run a socd pad team (map attacks and launcher to shoulder buttons) that might be helpful.
I actually mainly want a socd gate because I realized socd in arcana is screwing up my execution (If I move my fingers too fast I get 6314 when I want 63214, as all three directions held down gives me 1).
As for the gate itself, I got ahold of a friend mine, who says you should be able to do this with a xor gate and two and gates. ( the output from each button is clonned to the xor and the and, and the xor gate outputs to the and gates).
Toodles, does the ps3 te also send the dpad as seperate bits? My concern has always been people just modding their te with a “crossup defense button”
Also, we should retest this in marvel once the patch for jill and shuma come out (that would be the first time capcom could have feasibly patched it).
For a PS360 and, most likely, other common ground controllers, you can use 1 NPN transistor + 1 resistor per direction pair. (2 of each if you want first-beats-the-second instead of a dominant direction.) I must admit I’m a little curious to see how you can get 2 interlocks with one OR gate though.
Honestly, I’d think it would be as simple as declaring SOCD usage as cheating with a penalty of disqualification (or whatever). If people really wanted to cheat they can already do so in a bunch of other ways. Considering how simple it is, it’s also not a huge stretch to require all modified controllers to have anti-SOCD interlock of some kind. (OEM pads aren’t really bannable, so if Vangief and Wolf Crone are going to double-stick, I say more power to them.)
Yes, I did already state that banning hitboxes serves as nothing more than to alienate the most obvious potential offender of the issue, but does effectively nothing to prevent the issue itself.
Yeah sure, simple enough to implement, but you have to put yourself in a TO’s shoes. It’s nowhere near simple enough to police. We have no idea how many people are going to be showing up to tournaments, including EVO, running on ABC’s/Fight Boards, but guessing from their sudden burst of popularity after the Husser Brothers developed the Hit Box, we can assume it will be a non-trivial number.
Now, keep in mind that not all these players are aware of the potential problems of SOCD’s. So you run the risk of banning players who had no idea that they were supposed to be banned under some esoteric conclusion of making sure their fight board had this special NOR-based “anti-SOCD board” or or other implementation of that behavior to it. Not all fight board users will be tech talk regulars like you and me.
@Toodles,
As an aside, it might be worth noting that in future editions of your boards, you could include some sort of XOR or NOR function gate for opposing directional inputs. One thing I REALLY would like is for at least SOCD’s to exhibit universal behavior in fighting games regardless of what side of the screen you’re on. Eg. in BlazBlue, you will either walk forward and not-block or walk backward and block depending on which side of the screen you’re on, which is far from being anything unfair or breaking the game, but it certainly isn’t optimal, and it causes the fight board players to have to change aspect of their execution to fit which side of the screen they end up on.
As such, if the game software isn’t going to do this, might as well be implemented via the actual controllers.
I can’t say 100% yet, but I doubt it. The LS/DP/RS slide switch should send the stick information as either analogs or POV hat, all of which can’t do simultaneous opposites. If its a big enough concern, I can check for sure.
Can you describe this in better detail? I can’t picture how that would work.
I know of nothing you can do on a hitbox that you can’t do on a pad. Nothing. If you don’t ban pads (and the game isn’t patched) pad becomes the best input device to play marvel 3 on. People can (and probably will) learn pads just to do that.
I think that the only solutions for this are a) this “glitch” is part of the metagame, and a majority of players can have access to it, or learn to deal with it. (Marvel 2 players maintained DC sticks with american parts for years just for that game, so it’s not unreasonable to expect players to mod their sticks if marvel is the primary game. Marvel 2 players also used glitches as a large part of the metagame).
B) capcom silently patches this issue in future dlc.
I’m not going to restate what I and other have already said about “enforcing” a no-socd ban, but such a ban would have to include the pads of both systems, which isn’t something I think as a community people want to do.
I think it would be helpful slightly to be able to compile a list of PCB’s that send d-pad data as separate bits, or otherwise have access to proper SOCD output.
So at least now we know that PS3 absolutely can be afflicted by exploits using SOCD’s, and this nonsense about “THIS SHIT WON’T HAPPEN ON PS3!” can end.
Husser_Brian mentioned maybe making a nice PSA sheet detailing the issue and possible solutions. I’ll do what I can over the weekend. Until then I have a take-home exam in Neural Networks that’s just sitting there, calling me a pussy.
Well, i think it is not a good solution, as it was said earlier in this thear by someone, it is easy to turn on a switch or use a keypress combination to enable disable something like Start + 3 kicks , we use these gimmicks for Light on activation MCUs programming without the need to resort to an extra button.
you can do plenty stuff if you want to cheat and you can make your controller perfectly kosher to look at for an untrained eye even if unmounted. the only way to spot cheating is by checking stuff that has been done, it is also the only way to be just, you cannot condemn people on supposition you have to catch them red handed.
Electronically speaking you can use different booleans filters to rule out opposites.
using and gates and not gate
socd free Right = NOT (Right x Left) X Right
Socd free left = NOT ( Right x Left) X Left
same with up down
You can do it with a 4NAND chip and a 4AND chip the cost of a DIY such filter is about 1$.
of course wile you are at it you can add some gimmick to bypass that filter,
in the above example turning on a siwtch that will send +Vcc (with a diode) on both NAND tests outputs to the AND gates will overides NAND tests and alloow SOCD
or turning on a switch that will send GND to all of the NAND inputs ( with diodes again)
will de facto cause all both NAND check to issue 1 and leave the full control to the AND gates issuing a “=” function
okay so far anyone with 10 minutes of free time can figure out how that works by opening your controller and backward engineering your circuit.
But when we come to MCUs… the sky is the limit and a MCUs can handle a lot more complex logic than boolean gates, MCUs are everywhere we use some in the controller to handle sound/speach, handle inputs, handle lights, handle device/Host protocol, handle cheat tools.
A single MCU can embed all five above in one and costs about 15$ at retail. a MCU to do just filtering ( and filter bypass ) reatils about 3$.
Now to the naked eye a MCU looks like any other, and there is no way to know exactly what it does without having a glance at its firmware.
In the end I doubt people in tourneys can assume this workload of backward engineering everybody’s ware. And if they do simpler checks, slipping through the net is going to be a walk in the park for cheaters.
I can assure you programming/wiring a bypass for SOCD filtering is a piece of cake when compared to an Auto link routine, or Combo macro. There are very little people here who can do what Toodles does (device<->host protocol), but everybody and their grandmother can wire a switch and a couple diodes or release a PIC firmware.
Amp says screw you Hitbox users
[media=youtube]WYLajPO3AnU[/media]
At the very least, I can see this would make your opponent using Exchange on you seem pretty futile.
does it only work if you flip it to LS or DP?
Why didn’t you clarify that it should be banned until Capcom fixes this shit at the beginning? The tone of the video and title, until your last sentence, makes it seem as if it should always be banned.
Sorry, I meant in the video. After reading the first few comments in the video I see that this video was more of an off-the-cuff thing.
Because the first post write up was before his testing.
A few things:
Yes, the way I worded my thoughts in that video may do more harm than good. I deeply apologize to the community and all of the Hit Box users for this. It was not scripted in any way and yes was very off-the-cuff, so I didn’t really have time to compose the demonstration properly.
People still seem to misunderstand the point that this can indeed happen on PS3, it’s just a lot rarer on PS3 since plenty of PCB’s do not send directional data as separate bits, as Toodles has explained. (Toodles, I may contact you here soon while I’m writing the full PSA for some more technical explanation of this stuff.) People still think it will only happen on Xbox, this is not true. 
Yo I need to hit the gym. They weren’t kidding when they said “the camera adds 5 pounds.”
Honestly, I still don’t believe that this is on strong enough grounds to ban it from tournaments (MvC3 that is)
Besides the natural advantages, I see nothing completely game-breaking that you gain from exploiting SOCD.
The double block thing is merely an exploit. I assume anyone with really good blocking skills can do the same without using SOCD. Nor will you beat everyone just because you can block in both directions. The charge moves really aren’t big in MvC3.
Blown out of proportion imho. Just keep em legal.
Has anyone tested Gamma Wave -> Gamma Wave spam in the corner?
Sure, someone with good blocking skills could do the same, but when you take out the skill factor necessary, it creates an inherent unfair advantage, no?
Building the outline for the PSA, anyone with input on subjects that need to be covered, please feel free to tell me about them:
[list]
[*]**Intro **
(“Fight Boards/ABCs are becoming more popular, some people wonder if they’re cheating.”)
[*]Fight Board/ABC intro. (Hit Box is not the proper name)
(This will be the point where I explain what a Fight Board/ABC is, and why just because it doesn’t have a joystick, it’s not right to call it a “Hit Box”.)
[*]SOCD intro.
(“Some Fight Boards/ABC’s are capable of SOCD’s, in some games SOCD’s cause unfair behavior.”)
[*]SOCD’s are currently ban-worthy in some games.
[*]SOCD’s are not console exclusive
(Just because they’re rarer on PS3 doesn’t mean they don’t exist. This is the point at which I’ll be trying to get input from Toodles.)
[*]Fight Boards/ABC’s are not the problem, SOCD’s are.
[*]Banning Fight Boards/ABC’s will not effectively take care of SOCD problems.
[*]Fight board users are not intrinsically cheaters.
[*]Banning Fight Boards/ABC’s would only alienate people who could potentially be cheaters.
[*]Possible alternative solutions to banning fight boards/ABC’s.
[/list]
I know I’ve been wrong about that, but I have yet to see it happen in any other game than MvC3. If anyone knows any other games it works on for the PS3 I would like to know.
