i dont like xfactor at all. its unsatisfying, hell, all the combos in MvC3 are unsatisfying as hell. in MvC2, it took alot of button presses/execution to do shit like fast flies and ROM…even AHVB required mashing if you werent sure youd get that last bit of life. all those extra button presses and execution made for that “UGGGGGGH!!!” feeling when you pulled it off and it was insanely satisfying and made you feel badass and godlike. in MvC3, its herp derp 1-2-3-4 and it just doesnt fill me with the rush that MvC2 did.
I agree that in general Ultras should be easily punishable, but I don’t understand your example. Blanka’s Ultra 2 is one of the most punishable in the game. Even U1 is less punishable if he uses it as an escape.
shut the hell up
You’re missing the point. The relative skill level of the other player doesn’t matter.
If I am up in a match (SF4 or MvsC3) then I am leading at that point. As the leader, I should not have options removed simply because I am winning.
The same goes when it comes to giving out bonuses to the person who is losing. The losing player should not be granted special powers as a gift for playing poorly. This is even worse when the gift seriously limits the other player (Abel vs fireballs). Give Abel an Ultra and the other player is suddenly quite limited (no more fireball pressure).
Ultras, X-Factors, etc. should be EARNED. You should not be simply given these powers for nothing.
J
I don’t mind comebacks at all, just the extent of some.
One could argue that if both players are given comeback options, then the playing field is more even. But not all ultras were created equal!! Some ultras are easy to land via FADC or even one EX bar, are stronger and give a significant positional advantage, others are corner-only or unfortunately after a crumple, like a lot of the hardworking SSF4 roster. Clearly there is an imbalance (of game mechanics) if he doesn’t have as many ways to land it.
Modern fighters are all pushing for these comeback factors (except VF.) Now that the fighting game scene is thriving and as fruitful as ever, do we still need to keep putting these friendly mechanics in for the noobs? After the inevitable release of SSF4T we better be going back to pure skill and not pure gimmick.
You could argue that you do earn them in MVC3. I really like how it worked out. You could spend it all as soon as you get a chance, and kill that one character, or maybe 2. Or you could wait it out and save it for when you really need it.
theres actually a negligible chance that youll ever see another street fighter game or 2d fighter without supers or dumb shit ever again bc without even slight doubt, you could bet that if supers or ultras or w/e were removed from the game every single person that bought the game based on marketing (not easy execution) would be appalled and it would be a disaster
The problem I see here is that a lot of you feel entitled to a victory.
“Comebacks should be earned”.
Yes, they should. I argue that even in games like the SFIV series and MvC3, the comebacks are still earned. Ultras don’t hit themselves. X-factor doesn’t auto-kill teams. The mechanics are given for free, but you still have to actually hit someone to make use of them. Opponent just got ultra? Don’t get hit. Slow down, and be cautious. I think they actually improve the pacing of the game because it maintains an air of risk throughout the match. In ST, a single mistake could end you from full life. In SFIV this isn’t the case. You have many chances to screw up and still take the round due to the damage being lower. If Ultras were not present, I’d feel pretty fucking safe if I had 90% life and my opponent had 10%. In ST, I never feel safe. With Ultras present however, I can’t just auto pilot after some early good reads. I have to continue to use my head. I don’t care if the tension is generated by an an “artificial” mechanic, artificial tension is better than no tension at all.
You guys are also acting like you don’t get anything for doing well in a match. If your offense is walking all over your opponent, then you are gaining more meter, which in most games (particularly those with ex moves) amounts to being able to mount better offense. You also have the life lead, which gives you far more options when it comes to taking risks or turtling up. In Marvel, if your opponent activates level 3 X-factor, it means he only has one character left. If you’ve been soundly trouncing him, you probably have 2-3 left, which is a larger advantage than level 3 X-factor, in my opinion. Run away if you have to.
Another thing to bear in mind is that if you are hit with a comeback mechanic, you usually gain that mechanic yourself.
One more thing: You can only talk about “skill” when the game is over. Whoever wins more games has more skill. You can’t say that you have more skill than your opponent just because you’ve done more damage in a round. That shit even happens between equally skilled players. Fighting games are about reading, and sometimes one will just be on a roll, guessing right at every turn.
Real talk: If, in recent memory, you have bitched about how you lost due to a comeback mechanic even though you had more “skill”, you’re a scrub.
Now, do I actually like comeback mechanics? Yes and no. I like how they preserve tension. I would much rather the game be designed so that there is always tension without an extraneous mechanic, so in that regard, no. It’s just that, to me, you should never feel like you’re “winning” a round until it’s over. To me, victory should be earned, and that door swings both ways. It doesn’t matter whether you’re owning someone or trying to make a comeback.
Yes, exactly. Run-away tactics by themself are not a bad thing. But when there other mechanics that also encourage run-away and defensive tactics, the whole game becomes a turtle-fest. In a FG where attacks do low damage, combos are damage-scaled (or have hitstun decay), and you get free meter for getting hit, AND the highest damage comes from using said comeback-meter, all of this results in a FG that is not only boring to watch but not very fun to play either (this is not a knock on SFIV).
BTW no one’s a scrub if they think that free-meter-for-getting-hit is unnecessary.
“Don’t get hit” he says. I never understood this as a response to those who have issues with game design.
Ultras are a perfect example. You don’t even have to land Abel’s Ultra. Ryu’s fireball game is shut down simply by Abel having it. And if Ryu did throw a fireball all Abel has to do is mash or buffer the input. Not terribly skillful. “Don’t get hit” doesn’t apply to Ryu getting options taken away because the opponent is losing and now has Ultra.
Also, try to “not get hit” in a VS game. Good luck with that. Considering how much chip damage is dealt out (especially in X-Factor) even blocking is expensive. You could block every hit but lose a large percentage of life to insane chip damage.
As for run away, yeah that is necessary sometimes. It’s boring and lame though and why should I have to run when I have the other guy down to his last character?? Oh, that’s right, because he got level 3 X-Factor for losing and all it takes is one easy B&B to kill one of my characters. I should be all in his face, but one hit into B&B (which is not hard to do) can easily kill a character. That is not very skillful on their part.
If he EARNED that level 3 X-Factor then I would not be mad at that design element. However, giving it for free is what I have a problem with.
Why not have conditions/requirements for these things? Want X-Factor? Earn it by getting a huge combo (XX hits), or killing a character without using a super, killing a character with an assist, or some other type of condition. Dark Phoenix has huge balls (is powerful), but I am not mad because that power COSTS 5 levels of meter. It is not given for free.
J
To me a huge complaint about ultras seem to be that oh boo hoo, I have to change my strategy because he has an ultra now. Now I can no longer spam fireballs like I constantly do! To me, I think that encouraging players to switch their battles plans and being able to play more intelligently does something good for its gameplay while at the same time giving players more options to work with I think. Really, I don’t see how being able to continuously stick to just one battle plan is necessarily going to make the game more interesting… or even that using an ultra makes the comeback un-earned.
Personally, I really don’t think comeback factors should be bitched about. As stated before, they’ve existed for quite some time. And I personally think that meter gain does contribute as a comeback factor as well. What should be bitched about is how rewarding the comeback actually is.
To me, though, earning X-factor seems like a dumb idea. The fact that it’s broke when people are given an advantage while losing would totally make making a comeback impossible when you’re given it for winning, wouldn’t it? To me, I think a better idea is giving handicaps to the X-factor while still retaining some advantages. I think it would be a good to keep its speed and damage boosting, while making X-factor do no chip and decrease your defense when taking damage. That would really make people reconsider on how to use X-factor I think.
What you call “spamming fireballs” is the heart and soul of Street Fighter. In the old titles you didn’t have a built-in obvious solution “50% goes through fireballs” move that you get when you lose. You had to deal with them in creative ways, and to deal with a good zoner, you have to be as much as good in the game yourself.
But that’s at a competitive level, done by people who actually care.
The basic system in SF4 was built for the simple minded, unmotivated uncompetitive gamers around the world who need a simple, instant solution to fireball zoning written in the move list, and need a simple, instant solution to being on the defense (being able to mash DPs while the game won’t drop your guard, instead of actually learning to block and react and THINK which is what you had to do in the SF2 series)
Then they continue with the “how scrubs think” approach and because for scrubs, high level in fighting games is all about doing hard combos, they give almost every character in the cast annoying links that double your effectiveness with them. So now they can show the scrubs this game has “depth” although the truth is that the links only lessen the depth by giving you good damage and a knockdown from every jab and short.
And when the high level SF play needs to deal with a game design that was built for the low level of play, you get a mediocre game at best.
No, it’s shit like this:
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Comeback mechanics have been around since Samurai Shodown 2. A lot of SNK games in the day had come back mechanics if you had red health you had access to a devastating Super or infinite Supers in the case of Extra Mode in KOF98.
People have a (justifiable) problem with SF4 because the Ultra is:
#1 Relatively easy to do and mash out.
#2 Does huge damage.
#3 Because of the lenient reversal window it’s easy for them to mash it out.
#4 Plus it’s easy to build up that meter and a quite a few Ultra’s are safe.
I have no problem with XFactor in MVC3 because (A) it’s a one-time use and (B) both players have access to it. If you lost because the other guy has XFC Sentinel, you shoulda’ waited to use your Xfactor to counter him. You only have yourself to blame.
Keep in mind some characters need ultras in specific match-ups to do well. Xfc gives you a chance to punish blockstrings and avoid chip. In most cases, they add another layer to the game. I do have a problem with the significant amount of damage we see in them though. Because Lvl3 xf’s are 1 touch kills, I don’t think reverse OCV’s in MvC3 are ever gonna be as hype as that Jwong comeback.
The thing with K-Groove is CvS2 is MUCH different game.
Think of threat you pose when you sit on a full A-groove meter, or the threat posed of sitting on a level 2 in C-groove with high damage level 2 cancels… N-groove pop giving you essentially rage mode whenever you want it + a lvl 3 super for 2 stocks…
K-groove’s rage mode makes you equally/slightly more threatening to the opponent for limited amount of time.
Whereas Ultras/lvl 3 X-factor make you HUGE threat that your opponent doesn’t have access to until they reach their lvl3 X-factor/get their Ultra. X-factor IMO is not as bad as Ultra because MvC3 characters have a lot more powerful options that don’t need it, whereas SF4 has nothing equal to threat of an Ultra.
So all old street fighter games are SFII?
SFIII had the perry to get around fireballs, and fireballs in Alpha 3 were just about useless do to their distance traveled scaling.
It is this attitude of sheer, conceited arrogance that won’t convince anyone of anything. The false dichotomy of “either X game is designed in the only way I say a game should work, or it is for morons and cardboard chewing idiots whom are infinitely beneath me.”
It’s funny though; citing the “game design for scrubs” as the game having those annoying links that require skill that, when mastered, only doubles your effectiveness, is a very odd way to define design elements supposedly marketed at simple minded, unmotivated players.
Somehow, I find it dubious that Super Turbo is the only game design in the world which inherently engenders depth or requires any “skill” or “motivation” to play. More likely that SFIV is a different game. The problem is that self-proclaimed OG White Knight players keep coming off as whining about how their skills can’t dominate people they don’t believe deserve to win, in new games.
Cool copout answer bro. How about recognizing those differences and how they possibly lessen the game? Being different isn’t sanctuary from being judged.
Though I do find tataki’s points hilarious because he likes a plethora of bad games where fireball zoning and keepaway is flat out ass, due to be giving tons of retarded tools to get around it. Those same tools only had a shit ton more guessing to the game making them even fucking worse. Don’t be fooled. tataki is a part of the Secret Order of Scrubs.
SFA3 and SFIII are not good games, and useless fireballs is one of the reasons.
Why are you taking this personally? I was dissing the game system and the casual fanbase, not the hardcore players who play it because it’s popular and has competition and $$$ and fame.
And nice job on missing the point. Links require technical skill, and they based SF4 on that because that’s the only form of “skill” a low level player can grasp. But they only make the tactical aspect of the game worse.
Remember when they added justframes in Tekken and Soul Calibur? These, too, didn’t make the games deeper, only needlessly harder to play.
And when did I say the ST way is the only way to make a good fighting game? Or even a good Street Fighter game for that matter?
Hyper Fighting and SFA2 are also great games.