The issue is disjointed hurtboxes more than stubby normals. Add to that that people have faster walkback speeds in this game and that proximity block range feels like its been reduced and you get whats going on in this game.
Yeah, the shit proximity block and huge hurtboxes may have a good amount to do with the way things feel. Combined with 3 extra frames of lag and that could all combine to serve as a huge reason as to why the midrange feels pretty terrible and random.
This whole threadâs foundation really stems from the lack of control you actually have based on delay and how it effects every part of sfv gameplay.
They want us to play closer fine, donât make it harder to react ARTIFICIALLY Capcom.
Yeah, I think input buffer, rollback netcode AND input delay is a little too much just for the sake of âsmoothâ online play.
You just cant fix a laggy match between a pc player from the us against a french ps4 player on wireless⊠and itâs absurd to even try.
I lived with SF4s netcode for 7 years, Im willing to sacrifice a few âsmooth as butterâ matches if we can just get rid of input delay. Input buffer + rollback should be enough to help during combos. Now remove delay to properly react to movesâŠ
Whatâs Nashâ dash again?
24 frames?
8 of which are stationary?
~16 frames of actual visiual cue?
8 frames of delay?
So 4-5 frames to press jab, depending on characterâŠ
Obviously this is extremely exaggerated (imo the problem here is nashâ dash) but I hope some people still get the point.
Itâs always a mix of prediction and reaction, the reaction window just got ridiculously short, tempting the player to just pre emptively press buttons, rather than react.
And thatâs a problem⊠
Yeah, itâs very counter-intuitive. I mean, I would have preferred if Capcom made a game which was a bit more original in itâs base concept, but there is value in a game which is pretty barebones, because lack of impactful systems means the basics will be emphasized in some degree. However, the whole concept of âHey, letâs make a game based around the fundamentals, but then letâs make it really hard to participate in those fundamentalsâ is a pretty lousy idea. Really not sure what Capcom was thinking. The delay ruins a lot of stuff, as do the lousy hurtboxes.
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I think if thereâs something that bothers me more than anything in this game, and this may be a more casual (online) play sort of problem, but it does all stem back to the delay in why itâs a problem â and thatâs that taking risks in this game is so easy with the delay. Coming from 3S, where the entire high level meta of the game is to FORCE your opponent to take a risk so you can punish them for it, this game is just so backwards and hilarious. People take risks constantly, LOADS of them, but itâs just so hard to react to them all that they feel they can keep doing them. Itâs frustrating, it really is.
The entire time I play this game, I am more often than not waiting for my opponent to take those risks â and it will always happen, no matter who it is! My 3S mind gets blown every time â âItâs just that easy!? I just wait and theyâll do it!?â
Itâs so depressing that itâs so hard to react to stuff like dashes and shit, because I HAAAAAAAAATE letting players get away with stuff, because they wonât learn that something is a bad idea until it gets punished over and over again. However, the expectations on me to punish that stuff every time with a 7.1-7.9 frame delay is just out of the question. Itâs like every now and again Iâll get hit by a Bison Dash-up HK, and itâll remind me of just how delayed this gameâs buttons are. Iâm just like⊠âDude, I hit the button while the dash animation was still playing.â It would be one thing if it didnât come out at all, but to see my jab start to come out as the HK is about to become active, Iâm just like âJesus, that delay.â
The fact that you can actually see the delay tells me this problem is uh⊠too much. You want a fundamental fighter? You better bring this delay aaaall the way down, give me a 1-3 delay, 4 tops.
Iâm in mobile (no PC) canât see sigs friend.
Realistically weâre looking at going to a 5 frame delay. 3 or 4 is only like old games doing that.
yo that video was actually pretty good. i agree it doesnât necessarily prove any argument here, but it was insightful nonetheless. it would be awesome if you did this same formula for all the other characters in game. i know thatâs a monumental task but it would be awesome to see.
With how basic sfv is⊠it should have as little delay reminiscent to older games. Everything seems to be a hard counter to everything else with little wiggle room. We should promote and expect 2-3 frames and not settle for anything less (more than 4 frames) than that.
If mkx can do it, sfv can match it or do better. I mean mkx has a block button⊠their input delay is at 4. They need as little delay as possible because they have more to watch out for having to manually press a button to block.
Holding back beats throws in sfv unless your in the corner because you move out of range. With so little options in a perfect world their goal should be as minimal delay as possible.
This is a very nice summary of the situation.
As for Capcomâs logic, I think they tried very hard to make SFV a game of âhard reads,â especially after all the complaints about crouch tech, backdashing, etc. in IV. They wanted to curtail the amount of options players have in most situations because in their mind âless optionsâ = âmore honest game.â Now Iâm not opposed to having to make hard reads on wakeup or in the corner, but the fact that footsies takes place at a range where you canât always realistically react to dashes (and risk getting CCd if you try to stuff them proactively) makes the neutral game too read-heavy for my liking. Combine that with input lag and highly effective jump-ins and you have a game that is only âfundamentalâ in the sense that it is simple.
I think one of the things that people forget about wiff punishing is that there are other factors that go into it⊠Factors that are largely missing from sf5:
- The button that you are using to wiff punish needs to be fast and have lots of range.
- Itâs MUCH better if said button is actually safe.
- Need to know WHICH button your opponent is likely to use and what spacing they will use it from and set up your reactions that way to focus on the wiff punish for that very small amount of time.
Now the thing is⊠Most of those arenât extremely present in sf5 for various reasons:
What fast ranged buttons do most characters have? Well the game is stubby in general so most characters DONT have this âwiff punishingâ button⊠Save for one move:
Sweep.
Ok so, sweep it is. But sweep is unsafe on block⊠Like SUPER unsafe on block. So now you canât TRY to wiff punish⊠You have to MAKE SURE that you donât fail. In other words, wiff punishing used to be safe cause even when blocked you were pretty safe, most of the time.
But what about Ryu? Well thatâs a special case:
Most ryus out there canât wiff punish cr.mk with sweep reactively. They simply canât. Thatâs shit that the higher level valles and daigos of the world do.
But Valle and daigo still have something helping them out:
They KNOW what button their opponent is going to use, and they know WHEN it is likely to come out, and they know what spacing it will likely be used from.
This makes using the unsafe sweep to wiff punish much easier for them.
Now in sf5 however, there are multiple moves that are used in footsies. You canât rely on Ryu mostly using cr.mk, now you have to deal with a Ryu that uses cr.mp from many ranges, uses st.hk to CC, uses the occasional cr.mk, and uses the occasional unsafe sweep to outprioritize other pokes but who mostly just throws fireballs.
Itâs much harder to wiff punish in those kinds of conditions and it goes for basically everyone in the cast. There simply arenât that many great wiff punish moves in the game that can be used reactively while being safe on block.
Like what does Chun use to wiff punish reactively?
Her st.hp? That shit is slow as balls to try to punish mediums with.
Her sweep? That shit is unsafe.
Her Fmp? Yep⊠Thatâs about all she has and it doesnt lead anywhere.p and is still mostly to slow to use on reaction.
So while the 8 frames clearly matters to wiff punishing, I think the problem is more systemic than what people are aware of.
Iâm curious as to if you play on PC and have been able to turn V sync off? I believe that shaves the extra 3 frames of lag off. Iâd be curious to hear your impressions on how significantly it changes the footsies game without the extra 3 frames.
From what I can foresee, docking down the game 3 or 4 frames worth of lag just gets people to the next excuse of the hit boxes/hurt boxes which if that changes gets people to the next thing and then to the next thing. Not much different than SFIVâs progress of things that werenât like older games.
My theory since the beta though is that this is deliberate because the game is designed around the Crush Counter system. If everyone is pre-empting buttons at the mid range it makes your character much more susceptible to getting hit by a random CC button - like Necalli, Ken, Karin etc etc, add in a fast dash and you can see youâve got a decision to make - do I stop the dash or do I risk eating CC?
The answer to this is obviously not to pre-empt, but then your left with a mid range game where not much box interaction is taking place and thatâs kinda my beef with it.
I do have PC, I dumped it after a couple of months. I found it ( online) to be the least stable platform between the two in terms of speed. I pretty much exclusively play on PS4 now.
There is a definite difference between the two without even playing with the V-Sync stuff, but that could be the difference between my monitor and my TV or simply the PC version is a little buggy.
Iâd put the input lag up there with issues that urgently need attention. I hope SFV someday gets to a point where the major issues have been resolved, and all that is left are little nit-picky things.
Which should not be an excuse to dodge the problem, specially when KI, GG and now even MKX all have less delay and as good as or even better netcode. At least hurt/hitboxes are clearly intended design decisions, while we donât even have a conclusive explanation about SFV input lag.
The match making is obviously a huge factor in this. For whatever reason Capcom decided not to run with a region filter which means they possibly new that people would be getting matched up all over the place at large distances. Either that or itâs just pure incompetence ( after seeing the release I would run with that).
This is a problem for isolated cityâs like the one I live in, where the distance to another country is possibly shorter than to a city within your same country.
This was another theory of mine as to why there was no rage quit penalty, because who in their right mind wants to play Japan when you live in Australia or Brazil when you live in the US. So they made no penalty to save face from the terrible match making.
Of course Iâm trying to apply some logic to a situation when in reality itâs all probably just a bunch of poor decisions that look like they were deliberate.
Well, personally Iâm only having good matches since I select â5 bars onlyâ whenever Iâm searching in Ranked.
Im not sure if the ânetcode problemâ isnt more of a âamerican netcode infrastructure problemâ.
In europe (or at least FOR ME) netcode is actually pretty amazing. From beginning of the game until beginning of last month (until I stopped actively playing because I couldnt get used to input delay) I had a max. of 5-8 âbad laggyâ matches, as in unplayable. Everything else was either perfect or had like one short lag spike and back to good.
And I havent had much problems with sf4s netcode either, as long as I stayed continental, though it was worse than SFVs net performance
In Capcomâs desire to have in game currency theyâve reduced the functionality of online play. If they didnât have anonymous match making for casual/ranked matches it would make boosting possible. Only they know how they can improve it since we donât know the ins and outs of what happens when you search for a ranked match.
There is still no reason why they couldnât vastly improve battle lounge though with all the features from SF4.