Amaterasu matchup discussion

LOL Yes Stark, both of those points are apparently very accurate! However, you seem to be overlooking one fact. Posting that information was the ONLY way I could think of to get my favorite Ammy and Taskmaster player to gallantly emerge from the mist, annnd then immediately belittle me in front of everyone. SO, in conclusion, excellent observations on your part ,but, I hereby shamelessly award myself the Amaterasu Matchup Thread’s Medal of Honor for making it a 10-0 matchup against any Spencer whose primary mode of attack is firing a barrage of ground grapples over Ammy’s head. Now, should I get your autograph first…or would you like mine? :slight_smile:

… Is this making fun of me…? I can’t even tell, haha…

You guys have probably already noticed, but when I was playing online yesterday and noticed that Vergil’s Summoned Swords straight up neutralize Okami Shuffle. The shuffle destroys the sword projectiles instead of actually hitting Vergil, so I think Vergil can just walk through it and start hitting Ammy. Haven’t actually done any of this in the lab yet though, so more testing is definitely needed.

I pointed that out in the Brushstrokes thread but thanks for bringing it up again. The swords trade with fire and 2/3’s of ice. Vergil is free to jump up and knock Ammy down with the spiral swords which usually lead to K.O.

In general, I think the Vergil matchup is as tough as Zero (neutral: first person to mess up dies). All of his normals outrange yours since he steps forward to do them. Rapid Slash is considered a projectile, making it awkward to use counters (if your opponent is aware that it’s a projectile). However, if he whiffs (rarely), his ass is dead. Predictable Vergils get taken out by the counter.

You know that crazy thing Zero likes to do? Lightning -> Buster -> Lightning? Solar Flare eats Lightning, leaving Zero’s chest exposed in midair. If they do follow-up with Buster (they usually will), Zero takes 108,300 to the face with possible combo options afterwards (Solar Flare has very little recovery and Buster puts him in soft knockdown so it should be possible to dash in and connect with st. M or something).

Something nice to know in the Zero matchup, even if it requires Ammy-like awareness to spot it.

Alright guys, any tips against Spencer?

I’m actually playing mainly against a Wesker-Dormammu-Spencer team and I must admit it’s the Spencer and Dormammu that’s giving me problems. Well the fail against Dormammu seems to be because of my idiocy in execution on a stick, but against a Spencer I have absolutely no idea what to do. Playing defensively kinda breaks apart quickly against this guy, it’s ridiculous. Aside from Bionic Lancer I don’t really know what I can punish on him. Great air mobility and mobility anywhere in general, scary on the ground with dat overhead->Armor Piercer, and the fact that he’s even freaking scarier on X-Factor does not help.

Oh and I just realized how you can basically punish Wesker’s teleport on reaction with c.M, it’s so awesome XD

You’ve got this tidbit from Stark in the team thread

It really depends on his approach

If he likes approaching from the air using zip-lines, you can anti-air him or meet him in the air for an throw. If he’s predictable with his zip-lines (i.e zip-line -> cross-up j.S), greet him with a counter. He’s actually not all that dangerous in the air, IMO.

On the ground, it’s a different story. Bionic Lancer is everyone’s bane. It’s really a guess to when they’re going to Lancer in a blockstring. If they do and you block it, make sure to push-block when you see the XF cancel so he’s out of range for the overhead. Without it, he’s a sitting duck after it.

Watch his meter. The more meter they have, the more likely they’ll Lancer on a block-string for an XF cancel. It’s also better if you have XF stored as well so you can cover any mistakes once. Like I said before, people usually have certain blockstrings they like to do. He most likely won’t randomly standing overhead you since it’s 22 frames startup. Pushblock the attack before the overhead to avoid it and punish (again, watch the Arm) or stand when he does it.

if your fast enough you can also hit them out of the overhead with ammy. I was playing on O.S. stream and I saw him do the overhead so i believe i did crouching light and it beat out his overhead before it hit me. :wink:

Does anybody have any tips for Hawkeye matchup?
Airdash and reflector are both free gimlets, so I don’t really know how to get in on Hawkeye. There doesn’t seem to ever be a good opening because I’m being constantly barraged with projectiles. Add in Hidden Missles and it’s a nightmare.

Duck. Super Jump. Hold back.

Unless you’re about to die, Hawkeye has 3 or more meters or his team set-up allows him to kill you off of Gimlet, use Solar Flare. If you see Doom and no projectiles in the air where Ammy will be, Okami Shuffle. When you factor in Fire’s hitstun, human reaction speed, and projectile interaction (Gimlet has 3 HPDP; each piece of ice has 3 HPDP), Gimlet is actually tough to get through Okami Shuffle.

If you get in and/or Hawkeye has 1 or less meter, he’s done for. His normals can’t compete with her speed and Gimlet, on hit or blocked without a DHC, is pointless unless it kills you( -8 on block). If your opponent throws Gimlet randomly… raw tag on reaction. It has enough invincibility to blow through Gimlet’s 1 pathetic active frame. A beam assist works well against him since Ammy ducks under Spritzer, giving you time to get in. Akuma’s tatsu, more or less, is a catch-all for any normal arrow he throws out. Also, figure out your opponent’s zoning pattern. Most patterns have a hole for you to dash in, call a proper assist or jump through.

It also depends on where Hawkeye is on the team. Make sure to close as much distance as possible before the start of the match and/or when he comes in to make it easier on you.

Fighting Hawkeye w/ meter is an intricate dance. I usually end up taking a Gimlet or two before getting in his face.

It’s not in the middle of your leg, I assume.

[/lame]

In any case, I think I’m finally comfortable with the matchups I’ve been having trouble with for now; Ammy has some traits of MvC2 Storm in that she’s versatile enough to cover herself defensively against any situation, and I like that. My only remaining problems now would be tri-dashing rushdown, which I can still handle pretty well but it still catches me off guard the most.

Something most dogs should know since they seem to be scared shitless by Dormammu (pfft, after watching the bullshit her son had to deal with in Okamiden, Ammy can take Dormammu easy… canon-wise).

Okami Shuffle beats Stalking Flare. Granted, most of the time you’ll see it upon entering (in which case, jump on it like a grenade and guard so your opponent can’t use it for mix-ups) but some Dormammus will use it when you’re at full-screen for teleport mix-ups. You have all the time in the world to Okami Shuffle and hit Dormammu during recovery even if you’re forced to guard a pillar.

62 recovery frames! Goddamn!

I would think the biggest threat Ammy would face against Dormammu would be Chaotic flame rather than Stalking Flare. OS beats flare, yeah, but honestly if I were Dorm, I would stay full screen from Ammy and Chaotic flame on reaction. Either way, no matter what Dorm tosses at you it’s a slow trod through the various crap that Dorm can toss at you from a safe range, as a dash of any sort gets blown up by chaotic flame or a well timed pillar, you can’t OS on reaction to a Chaotic flame as CF starts a good ten frames faster, and reflector can also be punished by anything into super (Though I have no idea why you would do do that against Dorm as the only thing she can do to most of his stuff is nullify it.)

Needless to say, having read this entire topic, Dormammu is a rough matchup. It’s an uphill climb to reach him in the first place, and you can’t reach him from the air (Unless you have glaive, which I THINK beats out some of his normals) because Dorm has some godly AA attacks. However, if you get the room to toss down a slow, it should afford you ample time to get in his face. Really, for Ammy a matter of knowing for sure when to do it and taking all the room you can to get in there because it’s hard for Dorm to get away, especially since fire carpet disappears on hit now.

But my main point is, because I don’t see anyone but NeoArtisan talking about it, that Chaotic Flame will burn Ammy to death. 8 frame startup means Ammy can’t react to it on anything and if she dashes in any way shape or form, Chaotic Flame will nail you. With a damage of 281-338k, eat three of those and you’re done. When taking into consideration how much chip you’ll be eating and its’ realistically more like two. So basically, you’re waiting for Dorm to both do something dumb AND fail to realize that he can cover his mistakes with a chaotic flame that will hit any Ammy not super jumping. And if you’re super jumping, Stalking Flare gives you more crap to deal with and most of your options with stalking flare are less effective because while Okami shuffling that on reaction doesn’t put you in much of an advantageous position. On further notice, if Dorm has meter and is paying attention, he can just Chaotic Flame on reaction and nail you for almost half life. IMO, any matchup where you have to rely on your opponent to do something dumb because you can’t move otherwise is a bad one.

I remember reading that Dorm doesn’t have a reliable hit-confirm against Ammy, but now that we can’t get in easily anymore I doubt that’s even an issue. Purification tends to create serious problems for characters with wide hurtboxes, so I image you’re correct about our approach troubles.

You bring up some decent points on the Dorm v. Ammy matchup.

As far as the match-up goes, I truly believe that Dormammu is an even matchup. He has a lot of trouble getting people off his back once you’re in there. He’s big enough for her instant overhead to work. Flame Carpet, which was his biggest edge against everyone, disappears on hit now. As you stated, Vale of Mist will shift the match-up to Ammy’s favor since he’s a relatively slow character to begin with. Since you asked why anyone would use Solar Flare against Dormammu: if he has no meter, Ammy can sit there and nullify all of his projectiles, forcing him to move in. This situation does come up, especially when you burn all of your meter on a kill or through bad meter management.

Dormammu’s 5 comes from Purification, Chaotic Flames, and AA normals. Of those, Purification is the weakest. Yes, it’s a great tool against many characters and is apparently stronger against Ammy because of her wider hitbox (I’ve had no issues with this). However, if the opponent knows how to advance, it becomes a guessing game. Without assists, naked Purifications are risky. 32 frames startup + 11 recovery means there’s nearly a full-second between each Purification when factoring in input time. The moment one whiffs, Ammy can cover some serious distance with her air-dash at super jump height (as many characters with an airdash but no teleport will do because of respect for Chaotic Flame).

His anti-air normals are a force to reckon with and he can hit-confirm them into a TOD on many characters in the game. That being said, Ammy players know to not press buttons unless Dormammu is in recovery when landing from SJ height. Because he doesn’t have a decent dash, the risk of cross-unders is lower for Dormammu. Those same normals are terrible when the opponent is directly in his face, especially against Ammy since she has some of the fastest normals in the game.

Chaotic Flames is the biggest asset that Dormammu has IMO. It allows him to cover his mistakes when using Purification and its speed gives allows him to use it on reaction. I myself have been at the receiving end of Chaotic Flame many times because of bad decisions. However, against certain characters, whiffing it can be bad. Depending on the distance, Ammy can advance across the screen with Head Charge M and end up behind Dormammu or in range for glaive j.H to punish.

Before UMvC3 dropped and people lamented the loss of ADG, I recommended Ammy players to use Glaive Stab when a Purification whiffed to bait meter from jittery Dormammu players. She can cancel the dive into Head Charge L/M to avoid Chaotic Flames and maneuver away or towards Dormammu to punish. Ammy can stay in the air a surprisingly long time with Head Charge and charged glaive normals.

While I’m on the subject of Dormammu’s moveset, Liberation is criminally underused. 3D gives him a way to punish anything at full-screen and convert into Dark Hole -> Chaotic Flame. 2C1D buries the opponent under meteors, halting movement and dealing massive chip damage. Finding time to load up might be tough but you can do it in the middle of combos or when the opponent is dropping from a blocked Purification.

To sum it up. Dormammu has the advantage when full-screen, forcing Ammy to eat massive chip damage if the zoning is done right and respect Chaotic Flame. Ammy has the advantage when she’s in Dorm’s face as he literally can’t press buttons (not even Chaotic Flame) outside of proper pushblocking and because of his crouching height, Ammy WILL open him up. Liberation usage shifts the match-up to Dorm’s favor due to another attack Ammy has to respect. Vale of Mist shifts the match-up greatly towards Ammy because of Dormammu’s general sluggishness being magnified.

I definitely give you that Ammy eats her alive up close and that Slow makes getting in there way easier. However I can’t COMPLETELY agree with you because while you make good points, they scenarios listed seem to all be relying on Dormammu whiffing, which isn’t a scenario I’m entirely comfortable with. Especially when he’s got a beam assist to back him up if he DOES whiff a Purification and it becomes even harder. It’s extremely easy to cover any whiffed mistakes with a chaotic flame as well, meaning that if Dorm is playing smart, those flames will be covering almost the entire visible screen. You make a point of acting during a whiffed Purification, but the long recovery time doesn’t mean anything if you can cancel out of it. It sounds like an easy 5/5, but if you’re purely relying on that human error, it doesn’t sound even. This also isn’t factoring in that Dormammu has a rather fast teleport that carries him full screen and away from any antics Ammy might want to be up to.

Altogether though, if you CAN get to SJ height, then yes, you should be able to get a slow off to get in. And once you’re able to get in, there should be no reason Dormammu can get you off him unless you can’t catch up to whatever teleport shenanigans he pulls. But the relying on a mistake to even get that opportunity just makes it seem too rough for me to call it anything more than a 6/4. Because if he doesn’t make the mistake, he’s smothering you with huge beams and chaotic flames all day and Ammy’s low health vanishes in an instant.