2761

Wirestyle: Nope, you’re looking at the safe jumps section. Also all unblockables are on red background. I know it’s messy sorry, didn’t really intend to release this when I started.

Yeah, I know about those, I just don’t really like them personally since the opponent can delay tech and mess up the setup. And I think Lp fuki timing after ex hayate can also affect the setup, not 100% sure. But better have everything, I’ll add those and test myself too tomorrow.

Also I want to find consistent tsrugi crossup setups after the corner bnb (on shotos at least). I’ve been doing those for a while but just timing manually.

2762

I tried them and got these results:

Ex hayate, Lp fuki, empty nj, j.hp: Abel, Cammy, Deejay, Dudley, Fei, Gouken, Hakan, Juri, Rufus, Seth, T.Hawk, Viper, Zangief.
Zangief was pretty difficult to time, doing nj.attack seemed easier. But then you land in the corner if he doesn’t quick rise which really limits your options.

No quick rise: whiff cr.lk j.hp: Abel, Cammy, Fei, Gouken, Hakan, Seth.
On Seth I randomly got the unblockable with this setup, not sure how practical it is, ex-oroshi unblockable is so strict.

And the Rufus and Viper setups worked as you said, thanks for those.

2763

Am I reading that correctly? After a karakusa, you hit Hakan with the st.f.lk, and then just Utra 1? I’m away from my console at the moment so I can’t check this. Any videos of this working?

2764

with Cammy, Fei and Juri if they don’t quickrise s.lk whiff -> jf hp works.
with T.Hawk if they don’t quickrise s.mp whiff -> jf.hp works
the cr.lk whiff does work on Dudley and Gief
To make it easier for Cammy you can do ex hayate -> lp fukiage xx empty jump neutral or forward -> jf.hp (quickrise fake xup) -> whiff cr.lk -> jf.mk. If you press mk above Cammy’s head it will be a fake xup, later than that will be a real xup.

2765

Tried these too.

Cr.lk whiff worked for Cammy and Fei, couldn’t get get the j.hp to whiff, not sure if I’m timing it late or is it supposed to work. Dudley and Gief worked as you said.
I also tried dash, j.hp since it’s easy to time and it works on Deejay, Dudley, Juri, Seth and T.Hawk.
The Seth unblockable was just as random as I thought, haven’t been able to reproduce it. I’m convinced you’re only allowed to get it once per knockdown in your lifetime. I’ve seriously only got it three times and from a different knockdown everytime lol.

Also these are a pain in the ass to test with the record, I just cant seem to time the j.hp properly when the dummy doesn’t quick rise. But when I asked a friend to block it was much much easier to get the fake crossup. Maybe there’s something random going on with the record? Or just my fault? Blaaah, no idea.

2766

my guess is i think he means look out for those things from the oponent. when it has [ ] bracket on it

i didnt read them all but im looking forward to when i get on the train to work tmr. thx for the upload ened!

2767

That’s really cool. Looking forward to grinding these out :stuck_out_tongue: I might have some set ups somewhere to add to these

2768

Noob question: we can jump-cancel the karakusa? (finishing the move with ub)

2769

To avoid throws? Technically yes. Same with oroshi. Is it practical? No lol. I’ve done it maube once in match with a wake up ex oroshi.

2770

Me too. After a match,a friend ask me if is possible: he said he can jump-cancel the Oicho throw (he’s an Honda user),but I don’t believe that shit. If is possible jump-cancelling our command throw would have been already discovered. Thanks anyway.

2771

Yes exactly this, [ ] are ex moves, supers and ultras that beat the safe jump. You can bait invincible command throws with late tsurugi of course. I might have missed a couple and I didn’t list teleports and rolls etc.

2772

Hey everyone. My name is Time pants and I’m an an altaholic.

I main Ken (badly), but I’ve also got a (terrible) Adon, a (shitty) Gouken, a (head-shakingly bad) E.Ryu, and have just lately put some time in on adding a (day one) Juri and a(n hour one) Gen to my repertoire. All this to say: I love playing Ken, but I’ve been playing him off and on since Vanilla and, to be honest, I’m just a little Kenned out at the moment. I’m really wanting to shake things up and play someone completely different. I spent a weekend with her in training mode before having my confidence absolutely shattered in Ranked and put her away in disgrace. This time, I feel like I’m up to the task (or, more accurately, I’m at the point where getting bodied repeatedly doesn’t really phase me anymore), so I’d like to give her another go.

The biggest stumbling block for me in training was her karakara. I tried the shortcut suggested in the Bible (F, QCF+LK, B+HK) but HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLY shit did I ever struggle. I feel like I got it maybe–maybe–a dozen times in a twenty- or thirty-minute practice session. I mean, I’m obviously not expecting to be Haitani after that long, but there was just no sense of progress whatsoever. Back when I first gave her a shot, I just figured that this would be something I’d have to pour hours upon hours upon hours into before I’d start seeing any kind of returns and just figured “I’ll get to it when I get to it.” Now that I’ve got a bit more experience with the process of developing a character in SF4, I feel like I went about it the wrong way.

My question is this: What is the timing of the presses going from QCF+LK to B+HK? Am I supposed to hit the QCF+LK and immediately slam the stick back into the HK position as quickly as possible? Should I hesitate slightly? Would it do any good to double-tap the HK?

Other questions include: How many frames does kara-ing the Karakusa add to startup? How do I make use of frame advantage of blocked normals with Makoto? Does she fish for counterhit like Cody? Is her karathrow a part of her gameplan at all? Does she use all that blockstun to set up her Karakusa? Should I always plink with MP when I do a Tsurugi? If Makoto was 14 in 3S, doesn’t that mean she’s like 12 years old in this game? How could she enter this tournament without parental supervision?

Any advice at all would be greatly appreciated. Developing competency with Makoto seems like it’s going to be one hell of a journey. I’m looking forward to it. I’m open to any and all advice I can get.

2773

I’ll answer the most important question first: mak’s an orphan, so no parental supervision. Though she must have a tutor somewhere, maybe that big brother, who doesn’t give a shit.

Then, IMHO: don’t focus on kara-karakusa or on training difficult technical setups. She has an efficient gameplan that you should learn first (approaching, pokes, AA, punishing, KD and basic okizeme) and will allow you to destroy Ranked. Practicing kara-karakusa until it’s reliable before everything else is a waste of time.

Now, answers in order:

  • do lk to hk the quickest you can. But watch your input, you mustn’t drop :f: when you hit lk.
  • hk double taping is useless in this case as there’s no delay in this move input
  • Kara-cancelling f.lk adds between 1 and 6 startup frames iirc.
  • Blocked lights setup for CH, sure, but you also have instant air Tsurugi and Karakusa options.
  • Do you think about blockakusa ? Be careful, you must “block confirm” or karakusa will whiff and you’ll die… Try s.lk.
  • Secondary Method Of Doing A Late Tsurugi (though again it is too advanced for a beginner)
2774

  • I think learning the f.lk hcb+hk(/mk+hk) method is the best, short cut is really awkward for me and you have to think about doing it a lot earlier. What ever you find easiest. And you dont have to hit every direction, f.lk, d, b.hk works too. LK to HK timing is like a late kara input.

  • St.mp is the best normal to confirm counter hits, you can combo into cr.hp, cr.mp xx hayate or U1 depending on the situation. Generally I try to fish CH st.mp after st.lp, Hp hayate, st.mp, sometimes after blocked instant tsurugi (-1 at best).

  • Kara throw is good to get that last bit of stun, it often catches people off guard. Especially if you use a lot of instant tsurugis in your block strings, people stop teching throws after they eat a couple of those.

  • You only need to plink tsurugi when doing the late version, for me using hp to plink is the easiest. I’ve seen people use mp+hp~mk for late mk tsurugi too.

2775

Agreed. I tend to use :f:,:db:,:b:.

2776

I agree. Don’t focus on the karakara. I’ve been maining her since super and I’m JUST starting to implement it to my game. Why? Because I can. I’ve learned when and where certain things (like karakara or ia tsurugi) can be done. I would say just focus on her movement to get into footsies range(dash is your enemy here) and learn what to do/works best for you after acquired knockdown. Practice fierce feint strong as well so you get the memory for hayate canceling. Counter hitting does play a big part in her game. She can get a lot by just sticking mp out there which leads to sweep. She’s got quite a few more ch sets but I haven’t seen anyone use them to particularly devestating effect.

2777

i’ve been seeing a lot of blocked st mp, ch st mp, cr mp ex hayate from some japanese players.

2778

I’ve been using that every now and then as well since I’ve seen meu do it months ago. It’s a really strong ch confirm. I might take out ch mp into cr.hp strictly for that.

2779

Wow. Thank you to everyone for the awesome, thoughtful responses. I do have questions about “fierce feint strong” re: what that is. Also, TheKaiten7 said that dashing is the enemy, and I can totally see that. It seems like an awesome tool, albeit one for more advanced players who have mastered the nuance of her ground game. Until such a time as I have those concepts down, how do you propose I get around? Obviously, jumping is a horrendous idea due to how predictable it is. I know f+MP is a reliable friend, but with 13 frames of startup in which to get counterhit, that certainly isn’t a well I want to be going to often. Same with f+MK, I would imagine, and f+HK is a tragedy waiting to happen, mitigated only, if only slightly, by the handful of airborne frames during which a much-deserved counterhit would result in a reset as opposed to a full-on reprisal.

Obviously, as the saying goes, “a place for all things, and all things in their place,” but I’m not sure where to even begin with her movement. This was a big stumbling block for me last time, ending with me straight-up walking everywhere with her in Ranked because I was so paralyzed by the myriad possibilities for calamity seemingly all of her movement options could produce. Is the answer simply that everything Makoto does carries some measure of risk, and as such playing her requires equal parts boldness and unpredictability? If it is, I get it. I mean, that’s a mindset that I don’t really have, and it’ll take a lot of work on my part to achieve any reasonable degree of success in using her, but I can work with that. If, however, there is a safer, smarter way of maneuvering her in and out of the fight that I’m just completely oblivious to, please tell me. I want to be a smart player… I’m just not smart enough to know what that kind of play actually looks like.

2780

Fierce feint Strong (FFS) involves cancelling the recovery of her stand fierce with a Hayate charge, and then cancelling the hayate with a kick input.
The hayate cancel (aka HC or feint) makes her st.fierce +5 on hit, allowing a 1-frame link into st.strong. Hence fierce, feint, strong.
Again, it’s a 1-frame link into st.strong, and only if you HC as quickly as possible. Furthermore, st.fierce HC is only +4 against crouching opponents, so it’s best to use FFS after a karakusa or punish/dizzy/focus.
IAT (instant air Tsurugi) has too much push back for FFS to connect against most, if not all, of the cast. (I think…)

Anyhow, the input I like for FFS is fierce, qcf+jab+short (hold it for a split second or you might get a jab hayate), strong.
All HC’s yield the same frame advantage, so it doesn’t matter if you cancel a fierce, strong, or jab hayate. I use jab and cancel with short because it’s comfortable.
Then I plink the st.strong.

You get a bit more damage from FFS xx strong hayate than fierce xx fierce hayate.
However, you’re relying on a 1-frame link and also losing a frame of advantage (strong hayate is +1, fierce is +2) and positioning.
I often skip on the FFS if I feel like I don’t need the extra damage or if I want a slightly stronger post-hayate mixup.
FFS can be useful to build a touch more meter, especially if you end with ex.hayate (into corner jab.fuki, ex tsurugi).

While utilizing FFS in your karakusa bnb might not be the highest priority, HC is as great tool to have.
You always want to HC her st.fierce (when you’re not going straight into hayate or oroshi), as her naked st.fierce is unsafe on block AND hit.

HC gives you better frame advantage on st.fierce.
HC gives keeps you close at the cost of some frame advantage on st.strong.
This helps you either stay in to maintain pressure OR reset into karakusa.

Check the bible for a full rundown on which normals can and should be hc’ed.

As for movement… more or less in order for distance.
-Walk
-Towards+short for a tiny bit of movement.
-IAT over projectiles for a tiny bit of movement (not recommended against Guile inside mid.screen. You’ll eat a fierce)
-Towards+strong if you think they aren’t mashing on normals.
-Towards+forward (you can cancel into roundhouse if you think they’ll try to whiff punish).
-Dash
-Empty jump

I like to empty jump from the tip of j.roundhouse range. Of course, this depends on the matchup, but against characters who rely on normals for AA, this can be a pretty decent way of getting in.
You can input cr.short xx ex.hayate after the empty jump. If they whiff an AA, you can sometimes tag their extended hurtbox and push them to the corner.
You can also use cr.strong for more range over cr.short. Be careful that you don’t reach them when they’re blocking, or you’ll burn a bar to end up at -4.
Cr.strong is also easier to whiff punish for them, in the event that they don’t hit any buttons.

A big thing to remember is that, unless they have a projectile, you don’t have to rush in.
Even if they do have a projectile, you can neutral jump tsurugi to build some meter.
Just chill out at mid stage, creep forward with walking/towards+short/IAT if they’re giving up their ground, and don’t let them jump in or walk up in your space.
At mid stage, a single ex.hayate with a few dashes will put them in the corner.