Stuffing a move’s start-up is prediction.
Punishing a move’s whiff is reaction.
lol hav said it best, simple truth. :tup:
Yeah I thought about the definitions right after posting and realized how dumb it sounded. Sorry about that. One last question, hopefully not as ridiculous. Can you guys beat AKs demon flip kick pressure with Able’s LP super reliably? It seems that either I do it to early and he crosses me up or I do it late enough that I know he wont cross up but he has time to block. Is this just safe for AK if he does it right?
You can’t just do Jap Super, and have it work for all scenarios.
He can cross up or throw you, so you’re blowing your whole meter on something with a kinda shitty success rate.
That being said, I still let it go from time to time, but there’s nothing you can do to just make it work.
Not really(regarding the reliability of super), plus i think this is getting out of topic lol not trying to be an ass or anything. (not a matchup thread + not talking about posted vids)
… and im off to bed, im hoping to record vids against a really good chun player soon, im stil not comfortable with that matchup…
edit: Jap Super FTW lol
Excellent thank you both for the info and enough of a thread derail.
Match theory discussion can always move here.
Discussion in that thread has been less than inspiring lately.
“I like how Rico says he can’t land f+mk, s.fp because of lag… he can’t land it offline either. what a chump”
LOL
I should probably stop bashing Rico. I still think he is massively overrated, but I after how horrible I played last night I am in no position to criticize him
Thanks Combo! Pls come back soon and visit us more often!
It’s my day off from work, so I decided to check this thread again…glad I did.
Pardon my post, it may be a bit long and might derail the thread slightly, hope you guys don’t mind.
So to answer HAV: Your assessment of Shiro and AC revenger is pretty on. That magneto analogy is on yet not. He’s like magneto in the sense that once he’s on you, it could potentially be over. Magneto doesn’t have to stalk you though, cause in Marvel you can always throw out AA to create block stun, then it’s already over from full screen. However, Abel has NO pokes really. All he has is s.short, s.strong, f+forward kick, and c.forward kick for the counter pokes. Outside of that, he has nothing, so you have to start with a footsie game and then move to a rush style. I can’t really classify his style with another character but I can tell you, he fits EXACTLY with my cvs2 play style which basically revolved around footsies and the knockdown. Since like all of abels enders and knock downs are NOT TECHABLE, the timing for wake up games becomes universal, much like cvs2. This results in just working on one timing for their wakeup and adjusting to each character’s wakeups slightly and throwing when they get overwhelmed and want to keep blocking (in cvs2 this was replaced with the guardbar, which eventually broke or caused people to play less then optimally as they were worried about getting guard broken).
The way Shiro plays, it’s waaay geared toward top players. So I think he’d lose to scrubs/average dudes who do what they want/ non robotic top players who play doing what they feel instead of what’s always right i.e. during the time we were all there for SBO and Shiro got worked by us because even though we know what you’re supposed to do, America doesn’t always do what’s expected.
In the case of AC revenger, he ran a train on all of us because he played crazier than he does in the vids and countered all our wakeup options. That was amazing at first, but over time we adjusted and started doing really well against him. Don’t get me wrong, AC is my abel inspiration. Getting worked by him made me realize that back then NO ONE was remotely close to bringing the heat with that character, so I figured I’d fill a gap when I came back. Also, the fact that he gets offense going but then stops himself cause he assumes you’ll eventually counter. It’s amazing if the opponent does counter, cause they’ll be mindfucked getting hit on recovery. In the long run though AC will get read by players (as us US players read him after like 7 games) so he’s more suited to beat /scrubs/average dudes who don’t know all the options/non robotic top players.
Now Oida, this guy starts off as all abel’s, but when he gets the first knockdown, he doesn’t let go. This is what I mean by creating offense. He commits to what he wants to do and playing kinda unsafe is something that doesn’t really occur in Japan so I think that it’ll throw a lot of those guys for a loop. In the long run though, he’ll lose to smart guys and those that keep committing to backdashes or jumps cause it doesn’t seem like he really adapts, just does what he wants.
I think that the best Abel is a combo of AC and Oida. When I first came back I tried to base myself after AC but realized that TONS of people don’t know how to fight this guy which made me move my style along the lines of Oida (before Oida even existed, just using him as a reference point). Whenever a players shows me that they do know what’s up, I adjust the style so it’s more AC like. I hardly play like shiro or use him as a reference point cause I honestly think he’s boring (but really smart).
Here’s a summary in case you didn’t care to read that:
Shiro= smart+safe+execution heavy=win but no mindfucking, loses to smart guys who do what’s “least” expected and guys who generally do "surprising attacks"
AC=counter player+mildly safe+execution heavy= win a lot but with mindfucking, loses to smart safe guys who have nothing to counter or counter adapt to his "countering"
Oida=unsafe+execution+commitment=win a lot but mindfucking sooner, loses to guys who also commit to the same run away option or footsie dudes who don’t get flustered
As for the s.mp thing, yes I’m actually doing it in anticipation (footsies). I got it from those black bar vids tutorials and dude was showing the power of s.strong. I don’t know frames and don’t care too, all I know is “safe” vs. “unsafe.” I don’t know if it’s just me but it seems that that move is invincible on start until hitting frames so you can do it after akuma’s rh and it should still hit (I know I’ve done it).
Here are some of the match vids of the latest tournament I won UGTL 5.
Me vs. OnlineTony213 (Seth)
[media=youtube]yHAdaI_0sRU[/media]
This was the first time I really fought his seth since he improved. That divekick, uppercut, 360 throw game is dirty. Had me thrown for a loop, that and I missed a ton of crap. =(
Me vs. Yeb (Gen)
[media=youtube]PJhhwWXZkj0[/media]
Yeb is always improving, easily the best Gen out. His c.mk beats my jump in everytime and if I didn’t do the f+mk at the right range, he did his s+fk into thousand hands. That combined with him mixing up jumps, backdashes, and that ex invincible kick on wake up made it pretty challenging.
Me vs. Combojack
[media=youtube]MlWN5sEKTIc[/media]
This is the sagat player that wins most of the tournies these days (if someone who generally beats him isn’t there). Anyhow, he missed a few things that could’ve maybe have won him a game. I can’t believe I let him jump that much, as I never let him jump unpunished generally. Guess I was too concentrated on hitting s.rh with counter hit c.mk on reaction. I missed a TON of c.sh into s.fp combos which really bothers me upon rewatching it. I hate switching between xbox and ps3. It really destroys timing on one frame links.
Well, once again apologies for the long post. If any of you have any questions on the vids, I’ll gladly respond. Might not be in the timeliest fashion though, but I will respond.
I’m snowed in here, so I can post away too.
I think Abel is interesting because when you break him down, you do have different directions you can choose.
I was trying to come up with Abel options back when the only vids out were Shiro doing random roll resets all day. I never molded my Abel after anybody, but once Shiro vids started to surface (around June or so…), I realized that my style was a lot like his.
What you said makes sense about the player archetypes and who would lose to whom.
Like here at 5:40, I play LI Joe. Since Joe is notorious for flying by the seat of his pants, I adjust my normal shit into something slightly more offensive, but differ to him during points I felt were key in terms of momentum, and he took the bait. I definitely think that is the best way to play against certain players, especially in a quick setting like that.
Also, co-sign the difference needed in play style based on your opponents’ level. That was another reason I found Abel interesting, since one of my major flaws had been I didn’t pay enough attention to my opponent, Abel (and SF4 in general) forced me to pay much closer attention, and change up accordingly, because the way you fight opponents with Abel definitely varies based on your opponents’ knowledge of the character.
I appreciate this conversation… It’s actually getting me a little excited to pick SF4 back up.
But yeah… I think AC’s style is most in line with how I wanted my Abel to be, back when I was playing more, though it wound up more like a Shiro/AC hybrid, with it leaning more into Shiro territory. I still think that’s closer to the best way to go… but that’s kinda funny to me too. I wouldn’t expect you to think a lamer style would be best.
great vids! as far as I see the seth matchup, especially one as aggressive as tony, it comes down to a rock paper scissors matchup everytime seth resets you or knocks you down. block or roll loses to spd, back dash loses to repeat dive kicks, jump away and TT lose to dp. Other than that, I just try to trade with everything seth has in the air with j.fierce, and on seths wake up/reset your standard abel mixups and punishment.
The gen matchup makes my head hurt sometimes because of that c.mk and s.mk to hands, I cant find any other answer besides s. mp like in the akuma matchup. EX rekka gets owned by mk to hands option select because it comes out so fast 19/20 times I eat the full combo so I just stopped trying it all together. As for EX oga (wall dive) I’m 99% sure its completely invincible until he hits the wall, I’ve tried baiting it and jump back fierce like against vega but it’s whiffed everytime for me. The only thing I’ve had pretty good success against gen is safe crossup on his wakeup, if he blocks do your normal thing, if he ex wall dives rh roll and get in his face quick, gen’s dont like pressure inside especially when it’s right after their “go to” get outta dodge move. They generally try to run away (thanks to that wall dive they’re more than likely pretty close to the corner) or dp, both of which I find myself dishing out a really good deal of damage which he cannot take. Any other thoughts on how to punish the wall dive or get inside on gen would be greatly appreciated.
As for the sagat matchup, does anyone have any tips on timing/spacing to AA sagat? I’ve been really working on my AA’s and that j. mp of sagats seems to stuff me everytime. I’ve had absolutely ZERO success AAing with c. mk against it, and I can only seem to get a c.hp launch when sagat jumps in from further away or in really deep so that I either hit his elbow directly and get a trade or hit his body and beat it clean.
Any thoughts from anyone, agreement/conflicting thoughts/tips whatever would be greately appreciated! :tup:
Yes.
This whole AC vs Shiro debate is something i’ve been battling with for a while, and i’ve found I do much better shiro style. Toronto has a small player pool (about a 100-120 players), and with 3 abels, the better plays have figured out the best option selects and safest things to get out of his mixups. It was a huge effort to take all the random out of my game and solidify it, play abel like a “real” character, and the results have shown I think. My bad matches are no longer that bad, and i’m doing better across most of the field.
Note that there’s a huge difference between ambiguity and random. I see nothing wrong with taking the “best” option at all times. Yes, you lose a LOT of momentum potential, but you also lose the backswing on that momentum if you fuck up.
A deep j.mp from Sagat that would beat your c.mk loses to standing close fierce. There is a weird middle zone where you can’t close fierce in time, though, in which case you can force a trade with c.fp. Anti-airing sagat is a lot harder than it should be.
Gen matchup, far lk is a good poke. You can go to town with c.mk buffer CoD too. His medium kick is really slow overall, so whiff punish it whenever you can with c.mk or step kick. If he does EX walldive, you can punish with wheel kick if he doesn’t do a kick and just drops straight to the floor. Otherwise, it’ll probably get stuffed because oga kicks have insane priority and that juggle afterwards is painful. You can punish EX oga with ultra too. there are ways Gen can be tricky and make it a lot harder to time your ultra but if he just goes wakeup oga, near wall, far wall, land it is really easy.
Seth matchup is a mess. Turtle Seths are no problem but rushdown Seth is really really hard to deal with… thankfully he has to guess right a lot more times than you do, but his options are just too good.
just a couple notes on the gen match since i have suffered many beatdowns from yeb…don’t ever let him back you into the corner because he has a nasty corner trap with his crane jump fierce to instant overhead which i think is a jump back strong if you try to stand up. and he also told me that you can punish ex oga when he lands with ultra because the recovery is bad.
some gen players get predictable with backdash so look to punish that if they don’t have meter for ex oga as well.
wats the best way to get in? ground game with dashing/f+mk or is he Anti Air not so great so thats the best way to get in close?
wenever i try to get in by ground, i have to get lucky with dash in sweeps at max range cuz his s.mk is pretty quick, faster than Abels step kick at least
and then wen i try to jump in, i either get c.fp, DP’d, or c.mk into hands’d
what do you guys use to record match videos, i want to start recording some of my matches for research purposes and was wondering what you guys recommend i use. not trying to spend tons of money
What are the set ups for Abel’s safe j.HP against Sagat? I don’t think its ever been covered here.
Thanks.
Borrow this fromDesi’s blog, hope he doesn’t mind:
also you can do a safe jump j.:mk: + qcf + :k: (roll)
watch this video@5m37s for demonstration.