"A new Makoto!" Change list and poll!

[TRB_Spirit]

@TRB_Spirit I have a challenge for you. What I want you to do is play Makoto as your main for about 3~4 months in USF4. You have to fight all of her match-ups with all the character knowledge in this forum. I then want you to comeback here and message me some clips of your matches that you found hard and ones you found easy. Then look back at your proposed changes and think really hard whether these changes are viable.

P.S. Messaging 100+ people about your post is considered spam, don’t do this.

@ThirdofOne I have played Makoto like this say since March on purpose. I came up with this idea April 4 2015. I sadly do not have the equipment to record or a PS4 to record. Even so, I study the game of Street Fighter and have ways to theorize this character. I have played her without Command Throw for a while to get my Footsies up and to learn how to actually play with real techniques. Not to say Mix Ups are out of the question. SFV will be new and this Makoto would fit in great. I’ve learned a lot while playing her. This is why I know how to make her if she was to be made without Karakusa as a default, believe me.

P.S. I will take the spam comment seriously but know that I added all people who has been in Makoto forums or mentioned her. Adding everyone to a conversation was a means to pull those people together. Sorry about that. I’ll find a better, more legal stratedy.

I’ll look in to the youtube uploading feature. For a while I thought it was a fake or failure.

[BigMcLargeHuge]

Makoto does not have the most Damage Output in the game. It was at this comment that I realised what level your thinking on. Please think outside of the box.
> Makotos Damage Output is Somewhere between 300-350 without Super or Ultras [USFIV] using Meter. Akuma gets this Damage [321] without Meter.
> Stop believing resets count as a real connecting Combo.

Makoto’s most damaging combos (without Hayate Cancels for right now) with 2 bars of meter are as follows:

Midscreen

M Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Fukiage JC M Tsurugi, EX Hayate
386 damage, 608 stun

j.HP, s.HP xx EX Fukiage JC M Tsurugi, EX Hayate
386 damage, 668 stun

Corner Only

M Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, L Fukiage JC EX Tsurugi
435 damage, 706 stun

j.HP, s.HP xx EX Hayate, L Fukiage JC EX Tsurugi
435 damage, 764 stun

In the corner with 2 bars of meter, Makoto is capable of dealing most character’s Ultras in damage with the added benefit of applying ~70% or more to that character’s stun bar in the process. None of those combos above even need Karakusa, so I don’t know where you’re losing damage when you play her oh wait you play her like Adon. The series already has an Adon-type character; his name is Adon. And she doesn’t even do his job that well! Tsurugi is infinitely more punishable as a chip tool because Focus Attack takes a big steaming dump all over it, where at least Adon has the option to mix up his ground and air variants for armor crushing capabilities. True, Focus Attack doesn’t exist in SFV, but it doesn’t make sense to play her like she’s in SFV when you’re still in USF4.

Also I don’t see where I mentioned that resets count as real connecting combos, that seems to have been a leap in logic on your part in order to dish out what appears to be a personal attack towards me and my understanding of how the game works. For shame, and here you want to be taken seriously about these changes going into SFV.

I’m all for Makoto being in SFV, man, I really am, and these type of threads are exactly what we need to generate some kind of hype and hope for her going into SFV. If she makes it into Season 1 of SFV’s character roster I’ll lose my shit because she has about a 5% chance of doing so. With any luck we’ll get her in Season 2. That being said, you can’t gut the core mechanics of what makes this character unique just so she can fill in the hole of another character who actually probably won’t make it in (Adon).

(7)
By your standards based off of your words, she is nothing without Karakusa.
> Hmm, one of the reasons I made this discussion.

Karakusa is by far her most easily defining move and the entire reason why she is absolutely terrifying to play against. The point isn’t that she’s useless without Karakusa, the point is that Karakusa is specifically what makes her unique, nuanced, and interesting to play.

[TRB_Spirit]

Makoto does not have the most Damage Output in the game. It was at this comment that I realised what level your thinking on. Please think outside of the box.
> Makotos Damage Output is Somewhere between 300-350 without Super or Ultras [USFIV] using Meter. Akuma gets this Damage [321] without Meter.
> Stop believing resets count as a real connecting Combo.

Makoto’s most damaging combos (without Hayate Cancels for right now) with 2 bars of meter are as follows:

Midscreen

M Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Fukiage JC M Tsurugi, EX Hayate
386 damage, 608 stun

j.HP, s.HP xx EX Fukiage JC M Tsurugi, EX Hayate
386 damage, 668 stun

Corner Only

M Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, L Fukiage JC EX Tsurugi
435 damage, 706 stun

j.HP, s.HP xx EX Hayate, L Fukiage JC EX Tsurugi
435 damage, 764 stun

In the corner with 2 bars of meter, Makoto is capable of dealing most character’s Ultras in damage with the added benefit of applying ~70% or more to that character’s stun bar in the process. None of those combos above even need Karakusa, so I don’t know where you’re losing damage when you play her oh wait you play her like Adon. The series already has an Adon-type character; his name is Adon. And she doesn’t even do his job that well! Tsurugi is infinitely more punishable as a chip tool because Focus Attack takes a big steaming dump all over it, where at least Adon has the option to mix up his ground and air variants for armor crushing capabilities. True, Focus Attack doesn’t exist in SFV, but it doesn’t make sense to play her like she’s in SFV when you’re still in USF4.

Also I don’t see where I mentioned that resets count as real connecting combos, that seems to have been a leap in logic on your part in order to dish out what appears to be a personal attack towards me and my understanding of how the game works. For shame, and here you want to be taken seriously about these changes going into SFV.

I’m all for Makoto being in SFV, man, I really am, and these type of threads are exactly what we need to generate some kind of hype and hope for her going into SFV. If she makes it into Season 1 of SFV’s character roster I’ll lose my shit because she has about a 5% chance of doing so. With any luck we’ll get her in Season 2. That being said, you can’t gut the core mechanics of what makes this character unique just so she can fill in the hole of another character who actually probably won’t make it in (Adon).

(7)
By your standards based off of your words, she is nothing without Karakusa.
> Hmm, one of the reasons I made this discussion.

Karakusa is by far her most easily defining move and the entire reason why she is absolutely terrifying to play against. The point isn’t that she’s useless without Karakusa, the point is that Karakusa is specifically what makes her unique, nuanced, and interesting to play.

@BigMcLargeHuge
• OK, I said she’s scary like Adon. I didn’t say I played like Adon and really I was just talking about an Axe Kick and only in USFIV. My Makoto is new and different involving a much different play.
• Like you said, “None of those combos above even need Karakusa”… So why so against this build? but that’s your opinion.
• I also never said I was losing damage.
• Focus Attack is curretly not in SFV which you have said.
• I play her like this in USFIV to test my theories.
• I also said I wasn’t trying to disrespect you. You claimed Makoto had the highest Damage Output and Stun Output in the game which is incorrect and I immediately assumed you meant resets. Sorry about that but what you said made no sense. I could easily pick so called Top Tier Evil Ryu right now and say he has the highest Damage output.
• Also, the way I’ve made her will keep her unique. A solid Makoto that can play with a variety of specials and than go Hyper Aggressive with Tanden Renki. How do you expect Makoto to make it in and not be changed. I’ve made this version with full thought and variety.
• Like I said, this is my opinion on how she should be played and maybe you just don’t like it and that’s fine.

Thanks for contributing your thoughts, really and I apologize for sounding rude. I admit I did feel a personal resentment towards you as soon as I realized that you rated my build without reading it all.

How do I know you didn’t read it all…

Your take on Makoto leaves her even more helpless on knockdown than she is in USF4.

There are no mentions of invincible reversals or “get off me” specials. Her V-Skill only gives her projectile invincibility, and there is no mention of invincibility on Makoto’s EX Oroshi like she has in USF4 right now.

[Sp_rkster]

ＨＯＬＹ ＳＨＩＴ, what the hell am I actually reading? When did people start creating character wishlists for unannounced characters that are written as bean-counting patch notes for another SFIV update? I’m legitimately upset that my email inbox was being flooded for this.

[reh]

The one single thought of Makoto without a regular Karakusa makes me feel reaaaally bad. Really. One of the joys of playing Makoto is conditioning your opponent, there’s always the fear of the Karakusa. Tools like karakarakusa, blockakusa etc.pp are one of the main joys I have playing her, so if there’s one single thing that’d absolutely destroy my motivation to play her, it’d be that. Sorry, just doesn’t work for me.

[BigMcLargeHuge]

You’re right, I had missed out on that section. The navigation was weird for me with all the spoilers but that’s my fault and not yours. Thank you for correcting me with regards to the EX Oroshi, and I apologize for stating that you missed those details.

The main crux here is that it feels like you don’t have enough Makoto experience to be suggesting these as possible things she could have in SFV. While some of the changes are nice, the other bigger changes give the impression that you don’t really understand the mindset of Makoto play or her character design at all. I’m assuming that’s why ThirdofOne suggested you play longer and really dig down into the nitty-gritty of what she’s all about.

That being said, you could come out of the entire thing better than any of us while redefining how to play her in USF4. Then again, she’s been out since 2010 and she’s been pretty locked down on a professional level in regards to what she’s capable of and how to use her the most efficiently.

Your main focus with this take on Makoto in SFV is that you want to give her better and safer pressure in the neutral game while leaving it so that her V-Trigger is where she’s a true threat while only making minimal changes to how Karakusa functions.

In the current state you’ve left it in, Karakusa as a V-Trigger ability actually makes her weaker and that much more vulnerable. As soon as Makoto uses V-Trigger, the opponent will instantly be on the look out for the Karakusa that will lead into big, nasty damage. That person will know that she only has 15 seconds to make something happen, so she’ll have to take massive risks to attempt to land it. Since you’ve kept the start up slow for each variation, she can still be stuffed before it even comes out by anything faster than 5 frames. With its massive recovery, neutral jumping a whiffed Karakusa will lead to massive punish combo damage, which is exactly the opposite thing you want when you only have 15 seconds to make something happen. Just activating V-Trigger in this situation gives the opponent all the advantage they need because you’ve already given away your game plan just by using it.

The fact that you confessed to not using Karakusa ever makes you the least qualified person to decide when it’s best to be used. You state that having it in V-Trigger keeps it balanced but you have absolutely no idea how well it’s already balanced in its current incarnation.

So on top of ThirdofOne’s suggestion that you play Makoto longer before you start theorycrafting possible Makoto changes for SFV, I would like you to actually incorporate Karakusa into your gameplay while you do it. Really make an effort to use and understand Karakusa as a tool. Land Karakusa into big damage, whiff Karakusa and watch how terribly she gets punished for it, get the entire spectrum of what it can do firsthand. Then, only once you’ve gotten an idea of what Karakusa is and how it fits into Makoto’s overall game plan, will I personally consider and discuss your ideas for future Makoto changes.

Then again, you don’t have to. You don’t need my approval to make your own opinions about what you think will be good for her. I just don’t think anyone else will take you seriously until you do.

I’m done talking here.

[TRB_Spirit]

You’re right, I had missed out on that section. The navigation was weird for me with all the spoilers but that’s my fault and not yours. Thank you for correcting me with regards to the EX Oroshi, and I apologize for stating that you missed those details.

The main crux here is that it feels like you don’t have enough Makoto experience to be suggesting these as possible things she could have in SFV. While some of the changes are nice, the other bigger changes give the impression that you don’t really understand the mindset of Makoto play or her character design at all. I’m assuming that’s why ThirdofOne suggested you play longer and really dig down into the nitty-gritty of what she’s all about.

That being said, you could come out of the entire thing better than any of us while redefining how to play her in USF4. Then again, she’s been out since 2010 and she’s been pretty locked down on a professional level in regards to what she’s capable of and how to use her the most efficiently.

Your main focus with this take on Makoto in SFV is that you want to give her better and safer pressure in the neutral game while leaving it so that her V-Trigger is where she’s a true threat while only making minimal changes to how Karakusa functions.

In the current state you’ve left it in, Karakusa as a V-Trigger ability actually makes her weaker and that much more vulnerable. As soon as Makoto uses V-Trigger, the opponent will instantly be on the look out for the Karakusa that will lead into big, nasty damage. That person will know that she only has 15 seconds to make something happen, so she’ll have to take massive risks to attempt to land it. Since you’ve kept the start up slow for each variation, she can still be stuffed before it even comes out by anything faster than 5 frames. With its massive recovery, neutral jumping a whiffed Karakusa will lead to massive punish combo damage, which is exactly the opposite thing you want when you only have 15 seconds to make something happen. Just activating V-Trigger in this situation gives the opponent all the advantage they need because you’ve already given away your game plan just by using it.

The fact that you confessed to not using Karakusa ever makes you the least qualified person to decide when it’s best to be used. You state that having it in V-Trigger keeps it balanced but you have absolutely no idea how well it’s already balanced in its current incarnation.

So on top of ThirdofOne’s suggestion that you play Makoto longer before you start theorycrafting possible Makoto changes for SFV, I would like you to actually incorporate Karakusa into your gameplay while you do it. Really make an effort to use and understand Karakusa as a tool. Land Karakusa into big damage, whiff Karakusa and watch how terribly she gets punished for it, get the entire spectrum of what it can do firsthand. Then, only once you’ve gotten an idea of what Karakusa is and how it fits into Makoto’s overall game plan, will I personally consider and discuss your ideas for future Makoto changes.

Then again, you don’t have to. You don’t need my approval to make your own opinions about what you think will be good for her. I just don’t think anyone else will take you seriously until you do.

I’m done talking here.

I agree with most of what you said. Also I have used Karakusa mix ups. I only said I stopped using them in march to learn how to actually play with Footsies. I actually feel that she is not much without her Karakusa Footsie wise and this spawned my idea to place it in V-Trigger so that there was no more reason to leave her Footsie tools so weak.

• She’s Dashing into Normals.
• Almost all of her Specials besides Hit Karakusa are Punishable.
> Fukiage is an Anti-air.
> Hayate is Punishable.
>L&M Oroshi are Punishable.
> L&M Tsurugi are Punishable.
• Her Normals are flawed assumably because of her crazy freak out design.
• Her Normal Attacks only work well close up.
• The only Rangy Normal she has worth using is a 7 Frame one Tool predictable cr.Medium Punch.
• She’s Highly Predictable.
• She has only 1 Wake UP.
> EX Oroshi

This is not more about me not thinking USFIV is balanced.
It’s more about me thinking her character design has no longevity and is an unviable based off random build of a character, and this is my favorite character I’m talking about.

Yet I definitely understand where your coming from. You don’t have to respond to this. I’m not trying to prove a point. I know you may like Makoto as a risk character and that’s fine.

What I will do though is shorten her Karakusa Recovery further so that she can’t be Punished by a Neutral jump. That’s not a hard task seeing as jumping in USFIV was commonly 4+36 Frames. Thank you so much for your post. The Karakusa default removal is a big change that I did not expect long time Makoto players to accept as you said. My Xbox live account is running out and I no longer care to continue it for personal goals I have right now. Although I will be buying that PS4 just for SFV. Maybe you wanna get some games with me now?

[kraal]

Are you serious ? Spamming people with notifications, which get sent by email with the default parameters of the forums is just wrong.
Go away.

[KSRezscind]

I’ll commend you on your efforts for all the thought you put into this. And while I think you have some interesting ideas, there are some things that I just do not want coming anywhere near Makoto.

For one thing, I would love for Hayate to go back to a 3rd Strike feel. Ex Hayate is the only safe option. Regular Hayate worked wonders for post-hayate mix up.
I never EVER want to see Makoto get a super safe normal hayate.** She is not meant to be played as a special spammer**. Basically, I’d like more of a reward rather than less risk.

Restricting Karakusa is a no in my books. It’s a different take on her that would probably work with your version of Makoto, but to me that is also just not Makoto.

Those are really my biggest problems worth mentioning here. To me, I’d like a cross between 3rd Strike Makoto and USF4. I know I’ve had my fair share of whining when I see characters just mashing specials on me and staying safe on blind pressure, while I can get punished for the simplest of errors. But at the end of the day, Makoto has her defined type of rushdown. That’s the character I’ve been playing for years and would prefer them to expand on that sense and perfect it without changing her into a completely different archetype.

[TRB_Spirit]

I’ll commend you on your efforts for all the thought you put into this. And while I think you have some interesting ideas, there are some things that I just do not want coming anywhere near Makoto.

For one thing, I would love for Hayate to go back to a 3rd Strike feel. Ex Hayate is the only safe option. Regular Hayate worked wonders for post-hayate mix up.
I never EVER want to see Makoto get a super safe normal hayate.** She is not meant to be played as a special spammer**. Basically, I’d like more of a reward rather than less risk.

Restricting Karakusa is a no in my books. It’s a different take on her that would probably work with your version of Makoto, but to me that is also just not Makoto.

Those are really my biggest problems worth mentioning here. To me, I’d like a cross between 3rd Strike Makoto and USF4. I know I’ve had my fair share of whining when I see characters just mashing specials on me and staying safe on blind pressure, while I can get punished for the simplest of errors. But at the end of the day, Makoto has her defined type of rushdown. That’s the character I’ve been playing for years and would prefer them to expand on that sense and perfect it without changing her into a completely different archetype.

I understand your feelings completely and I agree. I just hope the already established method of Makoto if put into SFV is made to be balanced. The major reason I made this version of her. The slow movement and no long range Normals (only Cr.mp, 7 Frames). But yea I feel you.

[SSJXCloudStrife]

So, I’ve read your proposed changes before from the other topic, and I’m gonna assume it’s MOSTLY the same. Back then, I had already formulated an opinion about your ideas. And after reading the comments above, it pretty much cemented what I had previously concluded. So here I am, specially creating an account to comment…

Firstly, BIG props for having such a well thought out post. Usually when I play theory fighter for character ideas, I’ll do a few frame data changes, but you went the extra mile and did them all. Even displaying USF4 data. Seriously, well done. It’s the main reason why I voted so high.

However, that’s where my praise ends really because while I appreciated the frame data, the biggest problem right off the bat: Locking Karakusa away into a “mode only” move is a serious black mark on this proposed change list. I understand that you want to make her more scary when you eventually get into V-Trigger, but removing Karakusa from “normal mode” play essentially ruins what makes Makoto scary to begin with. It’s like telling Ken players that their Shoryuken is gonna be locked away as a V-Trigger only move. It doesn’t make much sense.

Sure, we may have other moves that are useful, but Makoto’s gameplan is to bully the opponent into making the wrong decision and then punishing them for it. They press a button and you stuff them with a well timed/spaced normal. They don’t, and you choke 'em out. There is NOTHING more satisfying than landing a Karakusa in a match. Sometimes just dashing up and grabbing them. Gives me chills! It’s one of the reasons why I started playing her all the way back in 3rd Strike to begin with. And now you’re telling my I have to wait till I’m in V-Trigger before I can use it? No. Just no.

See, what is probably pissing off most of the people above is, your changes gives the impression that Karakusa is a move that is OP. That it can be used and abused with no repercussions hence why it has to be locked away and its usage “earned”. When quite the opposite it the case. Karakusa is really but a scare tactic. Truth be told there are many matches that I have had where I don’t land a Karakusa at all. But it’s something that my opponent knows exists and it’s something that I can pull out of my bag of tricks at any point and land do big damage with. That’s the sort of mind games that is yet ANOTHER reason why I love playing this character. And cutting myself and others other off from that is the reason for most of the negativity.

Another glaring observation to me is that you’re making character changes and comparisons for her based off of her USF4 version. No mention of 3rd Strike. Now this could be (I’m assuming) because your first introduction to the character was SF4 … but I’m of the opinion that SF4’s mechanics doesn’t lend itself well to Makoto’s style of play. Yes, she can be good. Yes, you can be successful (like Misse and Haitani), but overall she wasn’t translated over from 3rd Strike correctly. And to top it off, if you’re playing her WITHOUT the use of Karakusa, then quite honestly you’re playing the character all wrong.

Where I’m going with all of this is that, if you really want to learn this character and how she should be played, then you need to invest some serious playtime with her in 3rd Strike. Maybe you’ve dabbled with her before in that game. But it’s clearly not enough otherwise you would be able to appreciate her original playstyle more.
Personally, I am currently training with her in 3rd Strike for an upcoming money match and I’ve made the conscious decision to NOT play her in an USF4 games because the way she feels between the 2 games is so vastly different… I’m afraid I’ll mess up my 3rd Strike lab work!

With all that said though, due to the offensive nature of SFV, I feel Makoto could be a natural fit if they stay mostly true to her 3rd Strike version (with obvious, but not too crazy, changes where needed). I hope really she makes it!

Anyway, all this Makoto talk has put me in the mood for some 3rd Strike!
So I’ll conclude this post with video from my all time favourite Makoto player, J, and the reason why I started playing Makoto to begin with. Enjoy and good luck with your endeavour!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ORCql6G66M

[TRB_Spirit]

[quote=“SSJXCloudStrife, post:31, topic:175486”]

So, I’ve read your proposed changes before from the other topic, and I’m gonna assume it’s MOSTLY the same. Back then, I had already formulated an opinion about your ideas. And after reading the comments above, it pretty much cemented what I had previously concluded. So here I am, specially creating an account to comment…

Firstly, BIG props for having such a well thought out post. Usually when I play theory fighter for character ideas, I’ll do a few frame data changes, but you went the extra mile and did them all. Even displaying USF4 data. Seriously, well done. It’s the main reason why I voted so high.

However, that’s where my praise ends really because while I appreciated the frame data, the biggest problem right off the bat: Locking Karakusa away into a “mode only” move is a serious black mark on this proposed change list. I understand that you want to make her more scary when you eventually get into V-Trigger, but removing Karakusa from “normal mode” play essentially ruins what makes Makoto scary to begin with. It’s like telling Ken players that their Shoryuken is gonna be locked away as a V-Trigger only move. It doesn’t make much sense.

Sure, we may have other moves that are useful, but Makoto’s gameplan is to bully the opponent into making the wrong decision and then punishing them for it. They press a button and you stuff them with a well timed/spaced normal. They don’t, and you choke 'em out. There is NOTHING more satisfying than landing a Karakusa in a match. Sometimes just dashing up and grabbing them. Gives me chills! It’s one of the reasons why I started playing her all the way back in 3rd Strike to begin with. And now you’re telling my I have to wait till I’m in V-Trigger before I can use it? No. Just no.

See, what is probably pissing off most of the people above is, your changes gives the impression that Karakusa is a move that is OP. That it can be used and abused with no repercussions hence why it has to be locked away and its usage “earned”. When quite the opposite it the case. Karakusa is really but a scare tactic. Truth be told there are many matches that I have had where I don’t land a Karakusa at all. But it’s something that my opponent knows exists and it’s something that I can pull out of my bag of tricks at any point and land do big damage with. That’s the sort of mind games that is yet ANOTHER reason why I love playing this character. And cutting myself and others other off from that is the reason for most of the negativity.

Another glaring observation to me is that you’re making character changes and comparisons for her based off of her USF4 version. No mention of 3rd Strike. Now this could be (I’m assuming) because your first introduction to the character was SF4 … but I’m of the opinion that SF4’s mechanics doesn’t lend itself well to Makoto’s style of play. Yes, she can be good. Yes, you can be successful (like Misse and Haitani), but overall she wasn’t translated over from 3rd Strike correctly. And to top it off, if you’re playing her WITHOUT the use of Karakusa, then quite honestly you’re playing the character all wrong.

Where I’m going with all of this is that, if you really want to learn this character and how she should be played, then you need to invest some serious playtime with her in 3rd Strike. Maybe you’ve dabbled with her before in that game. But it’s clearly not enough otherwise you would be able to appreciate her original playstyle more.
Personally, I am currently training with her in 3rd Strike for an upcoming money match and I’ve made the conscious decision to NOT play her in an USF4 games because the way she feels between the 2 games is so vastly different… I’m afraid I’ll mess up my 3rd Strike lab work!

With all that said though, due to the offensive nature of SFV, I feel Makoto could be a natural fit if they stay mostly true to her 3rd Strike version (with obvious, but not too crazy, changes where needed). I hope really she makes it!

Anyway, all this Makoto talk has put me in the mood for some 3rd Strike!
So I’ll conclude this post with video from my all time favourite Makoto player, J, and the reason why I started playing Makoto to begin with. Enjoy and good luck with your endeavour!

[/quote]

Well put. However I do love her play style. I don’t think Karakusa is Op. I think her Normal Attacks (short range, high start-up) are hindered because Karakusa is there. But with this new character Necalli who can stay in his mode. That very same thing could be done to Makoto and cater to both you and me.

Also several changes have been made. Thanks for your highly appreciated input.