• I gave her 2 V-Meter so that she could go into Tanden Renki more often as to achieve Karakusa. [If it ended up Over Powered, it would just be set to 3.
• I also gave Karakusa faster Recovery but that’s all [reasonable for being locked into a Mode].
• Makoto now can hit from a safe distance, for I have made all versions of Hayate short distance, yet safe, -2 on Block [cr.MP into Hayate].
• I’ve increased the speeds of Medium and Heavy Fukiage/“UP Punch”. [She is and always will be an Anti-Air God meant to keep players on the ground]
• Also EX Fukiage/“Up Punch” versions now replicate the Normal.
• She can Parry (Projectiles only) and do nothing or Parry and Forward Dash 5 Tiles giving her technically 2 Forward Dashes [Essentially she will be able to attack after but canceling is unreasonable].
• Also Her V-Trigger unlike any of the 6 characters right now remains Invincible on Start-Up just like in USFIV.
• Makoto’s st.Medium Kick is also now angled horizontally [so that she might have a “Mid Low ANGLED Hit Box” attack (cr.Medium Punch) and a “Mid High ANGLED Hit Box” st.Medium Kick, a rock paper scissors if you will to remain unpredictable].*
• I’ve also made all LP’s 3 Frames and cr.MP 6 Frames with reasonable thought as this whole build is well thought out. [I started this idea April 4 2015]

• If she gets it blocked she will be at negative, leaving the opponent to attack first.
• It may be a true block string but she will be at a negative unlike USFIV’s Evil Ryu cr.Medium Kick Hadouken, where the Projectile is doing the Pushback and not the players physical body leaving him totally Safe.

• Don’t forget to read the Critical Arts.
• Also reading the Critical Arts and Universal Abilities are the fastest to read and understand.

As long as she can do better stuff in red form instead of just a joking thing then I’m fine with whatever she gets as long as she has better combos :confused:

Your take on Makoto leaves her even more helpless on knockdown than she is in USF4.

There are no mentions of invincible reversals or “get off me” specials. Her V-Skill only gives her projectile invincibility, and there is no mention of invincibility on Makoto’s EX Oroshi like she has in USF4 right now.

While she never had perfect wake-up options in SSF4/USF4 to begin with, she still had armor on EX Karakusa to blow through option selects and the aforementioned EX Oroshi, which is only strike invincible for the first 12 frames of start up (EX Oroshi is not active until frame 18). Nothing else she has outside of Super/U1 has complete invincibility through to the active frames, both of which are incredibly predictable once she has meter since Makoto has nothing else to rely on as far as reversals go.

In addition to the notes above, backdashes in SFV no longer have invincibility frames. The most advantageous backdashes in SFV will be those that cover the most space and move the fastest (both of which you nerfed on your version of Makoto). Even then, any sufficiently meaty attack will stuff a backdash entirely on wake up now. What we’re left with is a Makoto in SFV whose literally only option on wake up is to block. Blocking is a great skill to learn, but Makoto players will have to deal with a constant string of pressure that she has no way of escaping as soon as she is knocked down. Nothing on her wake up makes her even a little bit scary, she’ll be absolutely free.

Now the trade off for having some of the shittiest defensive options in SSF4/USF4 is that she’s an absolute monster on offense. Makoto easily has the most damage and stun output in the entire game. Her normals also leave her at a ton of advantage, which creates a massive amount of frame trap opportunities. The point of frame traps is to make the other person afraid to hit buttons or risk taking counter hit damage/combos. This is Makoto’s entire game plan. Once the opponent is too afraid to hit buttons and starts patiently blocking, she can Karakusa to grab them and open them up. That’s exactly what it’s there for.

What you’ve given us instead is a Makoto that has extremely safe pressure in the neutral game but no way to open up the opponent once they are scared. You’ve given us Dictator. Any player that is incredibly patient and has astounding defense will stonewall Makoto whenever she is not in V-Trigger.

You seem to think that Karakusa is overpowered for some reason. It is a very good command grab, all things considered, sure. It leads to a whole bevy of damage, set ups, and reset options when it’s landed. To balance that out, however, Karakusa is incredibly slow, has absolutely abysmal range without kara cancels (which makes it even slower), and massive recovery on whiff. It has no form of invincibility outside of armored EX Karakusa. What this means is that Karakusa is the reward you deserve if your offense is so oppressive that they have no other option but to block. You just can’t throw it out there. Any opponent who has downloaded and committed to memory your tick Karakusas and set ups can easily throw/jab/jump out of the start up frames, which leads to punish combos, momentum shifts, and, in most cases, a lost round for Makoto.

By limiting Karakusa access to V-Trigger only, you’ve essentially given the opponent a big, red, and obvious sign of when she wants to command grab you, which entirely defeats the purpose of why it exists in the first place. Sure, you could use the V-Trigger as a mind game to scare them with the threat of it, but that’ll only last until your meter runs out and then what have you got? A wasted 15 seconds of even more safe pressure and block strings just to scare them with the possibility of a grab that will presumably be just as slow, short ranged, and punishable as it is in USF4.

Karakusa is amazing when its landed specifically because it’s so easy to stop and so easy to punish when read properly. Restricting it even further makes it damn near pointless, you might as well take it away from her entirely at this point.

(1)
Please read.
• EX Oroshi retains it’s invinsibilty [Normals & Specials > Specials > Choke > EX].
> 1-12 Frames (Strike invincibility)
> 1-12 Frames (Projectile invincibility)

(2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFu95VmgY94
• I did make the Fukiage/“Up Punch” Upper Body Invincible. Although you are right in the fact that her Wake Up game is not good but that’s why we can debate.
> I will make it so that all versions of EX hold Full Body Invincibility.

(3)
Makoto’s Back Dash is still great. [10.5 Tiles in Distance is just 2 Tiles below the Back Dash she used to have].
> Understand that 10.5 is above average in the first place. I increased her Walk Speed and compensated for it. I’m not focused on making her Over Powered. Please read the build and understand this Makoto and not so much old Makotos.

(4)
Makoto does not have the most Damage Output in the game. It was at this comment that I realised what level your thinking on. Please think outside of the box.
> Makotos Damage Output is Somewhere between 300-350 without Super or Ultras [USFIV] using Meter. Akuma gets this Damage [321] without Meter.
> Stop believing resets count as a real connecting Combo.

(5)
I play Makoto [USFIV] without using Karakusa on purpose and do very well. She’s like Adon somewhat. Very Solid and Scary. [Opinion] Please stop relying on a Command Throw (but that’s your opinion, I am not trying to disrespect you).

(6)
Right now as I have it, when she activates V-Trigger, she can gains Damage Output and Karakusa which is very scary. There will be no problem. I could how ever add to the things she can do which I am thinking out as I discover more information pertaining to SFV.
> I don’t want to make her OP. Take some time and understand this build of Makoto.

(7)
By your standards based off of your words, she is nothing without Karakusa.
> Hmm, one of the reasons I made this discussion.

What does anyone think about this V-Trigger Makoto option. If this was implicated, I would touch nothing else about Makoto’s V-Trgger.

[V-Trigger]
• Heavy/EX Hayate/“Dash Punch” reanimated to resemble Yamase/“Stepping Triple Punch” (USFIV Target Combo) [Including the step back].
> 1st Hit = -7 (Advantage on Block) [Safe due to Pushback]
> 3rd Hit = -5 (Advantage on Block) [Safe due to Pushback]
> 16 Frames (Start-up) [1st Hit]
> 7 Frames (Start-up) [2nd Hit]
> 17 Frames (Recovery) [1st Hit Whiff]
> 17 Frames (Recovery) [3rd Hit Whiff]
> -4 Frames (Advantage on Hit) [1st Hit]
> SKD Frames (Advantage on Hit) [3rd Hit]
> -8 Frames (Advantage on Block) [1st Hit]
> -5 Frames (Advantage on Block) [3rd Hit]
> 12 Tiles Away (Travel/To hit)
> 26 Tiles Away (Pushback on hit when used at the closest range)
> 30 Tiles Away (Pushback on hit when used against an Aerial opponent at the closest range)
> 4 Tiles Away (Pushback on block when used at the closest range) [1st Hit]
> 10 Tiles Away (Pushback on block when used at the closest range) [3rd Hit]
> 1st and 2nd Hit do not send opponent flying [3rd Hit sends opponent flying].
> Quarter Circle Forward Heavy/EX Punch for 1st Hit.
> Quarter Circle Forward Heavy/EX Punch for 2nd and 3rd Hit.
> Technically 2 Rekkas motions.
> Only this Special in V-Trigger will deplete V-Trigger by 20%

I am profoundly confused by this. You play Makoto without karakusa? You think Makoto plays like Adon??

@BigMcLargeHuge sums up my thoughts pretty nicely about your proposed build. Taking away karakusa from Makoto is tantamount to taking away hadoken from Ryu-- it removes the entire essence of the character. Makoto needs to be balanced around karakusa, not in spite of it.

@TRB_Spirit I have a challenge for you. What I want you to do is play Makoto as your main for about 3~4 months in USF4. You have to fight all of her match-ups with all the character knowledge in this forum. I then want you to comeback here and message me some clips of your matches that you found hard and ones you found easy. Then look back at your proposed changes and think really hard whether these changes are viable.

P.S. Messaging 100+ people about your post is considered spam, don’t do this.

I do not disagree with you. I guess my opinion of this play-style for Makoto is just different than yours. I accept your thoughts and am grateful for the fact that you have rated her 00-10%, for that is your opinion.

@ThirdofOne I have played Makoto like this say since March on purpose. I came up with this idea April 4 2015. I sadly do not have the equipment to record or a PS4 to record. Even so, I study the game of Street Fighter and have ways to theorize this character. I have played her without Command Throw for a while to get my Footsies up and to learn how to actually play with real techniques. Not to say Mix Ups are out of the question. SFV will be new and this Makoto would fit in great. I’ve learned a lot while playing her. This is why I know how to make her if she was to be made without Karakusa as a default, believe me.

P.S. I will take the spam comment seriously but know that I added all people who has been in Makoto forums or mentioned her. Adding everyone to a conversation was a means to pull those people together. Sorry about that. I’ll find a better, more legal stratedy.

I’ll look in to the youtube uploading feature. For a while I thought it was a fake or failure.

Makoto’s most damaging combos (without Hayate Cancels for right now) with 2 bars of meter are as follows:

Midscreen

M Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Fukiage JC M Tsurugi, EX Hayate
386 damage, 608 stun

j.HP, s.HP xx EX Fukiage JC M Tsurugi, EX Hayate
386 damage, 668 stun

Corner Only

M Tsurugi, s.HP xx EX Hayate, L Fukiage JC EX Tsurugi
435 damage, 706 stun

j.HP, s.HP xx EX Hayate, L Fukiage JC EX Tsurugi
435 damage, 764 stun

In the corner with 2 bars of meter, Makoto is capable of dealing most character’s Ultras in damage with the added benefit of applying ~70% or more to that character’s stun bar in the process. None of those combos above even need Karakusa, so I don’t know where you’re losing damage when you play her oh wait you play her like Adon. The series already has an Adon-type character; his name is Adon. And she doesn’t even do his job that well! Tsurugi is infinitely more punishable as a chip tool because Focus Attack takes a big steaming dump all over it, where at least Adon has the option to mix up his ground and air variants for armor crushing capabilities. True, Focus Attack doesn’t exist in SFV, but it doesn’t make sense to play her like she’s in SFV when you’re still in USF4.

Also I don’t see where I mentioned that resets count as real connecting combos, that seems to have been a leap in logic on your part in order to dish out what appears to be a personal attack towards me and my understanding of how the game works. For shame, and here you want to be taken seriously about these changes going into SFV.

I’m all for Makoto being in SFV, man, I really am, and these type of threads are exactly what we need to generate some kind of hype and hope for her going into SFV. If she makes it into Season 1 of SFV’s character roster I’ll lose my shit because she has about a 5% chance of doing so. With any luck we’ll get her in Season 2. That being said, you can’t gut the core mechanics of what makes this character unique just so she can fill in the hole of another character who actually probably won’t make it in (Adon).

Karakusa is by far her most easily defining move and the entire reason why she is absolutely terrifying to play against. The point isn’t that she’s useless without Karakusa, the point is that Karakusa is specifically what makes her unique, nuanced, and interesting to play.

@BigMcLargeHuge
• OK, I said she’s scary like Adon. I didn’t say I played like Adon and really I was just talking about an Axe Kick and only in USFIV. My Makoto is new and different involving a much different play.
• Like you said, “None of those combos above even need Karakusa”… So why so against this build? but that’s your opinion.
• I also never said I was losing damage.
• Focus Attack is curretly not in SFV which you have said.
• I play her like this in USFIV to test my theories.
• I also said I wasn’t trying to disrespect you. You claimed Makoto had the highest Damage Output and Stun Output in the game which is incorrect and I immediately assumed you meant resets. Sorry about that but what you said made no sense. I could easily pick so called Top Tier Evil Ryu right now and say he has the highest Damage output.
• Also, the way I’ve made her will keep her unique. A solid Makoto that can play with a variety of specials and than go Hyper Aggressive with Tanden Renki. How do you expect Makoto to make it in and not be changed. I’ve made this version with full thought and variety.
• Like I said, this is my opinion on how she should be played and maybe you just don’t like it and that’s fine.

Thanks for contributing your thoughts, really and I apologize for sounding rude. I admit I did feel a personal resentment towards you as soon as I realized that you rated my build without reading it all.

How do I know you didn’t read it all…

HOLY SHIT, what the hell am I actually reading? When did people start creating character wishlists for unannounced characters that are written as bean-counting patch notes for another SFIV update? I’m legitimately upset that my email inbox was being flooded for this.

The one single thought of Makoto without a regular Karakusa makes me feel reaaaally bad. Really. One of the joys of playing Makoto is conditioning your opponent, there’s always the fear of the Karakusa. Tools like karakarakusa, blockakusa etc.pp are one of the main joys I have playing her, so if there’s one single thing that’d absolutely destroy my motivation to play her, it’d be that. Sorry, just doesn’t work for me.

You’re right, I had missed out on that section. The navigation was weird for me with all the spoilers but that’s my fault and not yours. Thank you for correcting me with regards to the EX Oroshi, and I apologize for stating that you missed those details.

The main crux here is that it feels like you don’t have enough Makoto experience to be suggesting these as possible things she could have in SFV. While some of the changes are nice, the other bigger changes give the impression that you don’t really understand the mindset of Makoto play or her character design at all. I’m assuming that’s why ThirdofOne suggested you play longer and really dig down into the nitty-gritty of what she’s all about.

That being said, you could come out of the entire thing better than any of us while redefining how to play her in USF4. Then again, she’s been out since 2010 and she’s been pretty locked down on a professional level in regards to what she’s capable of and how to use her the most efficiently.

Your main focus with this take on Makoto in SFV is that you want to give her better and safer pressure in the neutral game while leaving it so that her V-Trigger is where she’s a true threat while only making minimal changes to how Karakusa functions.

In the current state you’ve left it in, Karakusa as a V-Trigger ability actually makes her weaker and that much more vulnerable. As soon as Makoto uses V-Trigger, the opponent will instantly be on the look out for the Karakusa that will lead into big, nasty damage. That person will know that she only has 15 seconds to make something happen, so she’ll have to take massive risks to attempt to land it. Since you’ve kept the start up slow for each variation, she can still be stuffed before it even comes out by anything faster than 5 frames. With its massive recovery, neutral jumping a whiffed Karakusa will lead to massive punish combo damage, which is exactly the opposite thing you want when you only have 15 seconds to make something happen. Just activating V-Trigger in this situation gives the opponent all the advantage they need because you’ve already given away your game plan just by using it.

The fact that you confessed to not using Karakusa ever makes you the least qualified person to decide when it’s best to be used. You state that having it in V-Trigger keeps it balanced but you have absolutely no idea how well it’s already balanced in its current incarnation.

So on top of ThirdofOne’s suggestion that you play Makoto longer before you start theorycrafting possible Makoto changes for SFV, I would like you to actually incorporate Karakusa into your gameplay while you do it. Really make an effort to use and understand Karakusa as a tool. Land Karakusa into big damage, whiff Karakusa and watch how terribly she gets punished for it, get the entire spectrum of what it can do firsthand. Then, only once you’ve gotten an idea of what Karakusa is and how it fits into Makoto’s overall game plan, will I personally consider and discuss your ideas for future Makoto changes.

Then again, you don’t have to. You don’t need my approval to make your own opinions about what you think will be good for her. I just don’t think anyone else will take you seriously until you do.

I’m done talking here.

I agree with most of what you said. Also I have used Karakusa mix ups. I only said I stopped using them in march to learn how to actually play with Footsies. I actually feel that she is not much without her Karakusa Footsie wise and this spawned my idea to place it in V-Trigger so that there was no more reason to leave her Footsie tools so weak.

• She’s Dashing into Normals.
• Almost all of her Specials besides Hit Karakusa are Punishable.
> Fukiage is an Anti-air.
> Hayate is Punishable.
>L&M Oroshi are Punishable.
> L&M Tsurugi are Punishable.
• Her Normals are flawed assumably because of her crazy freak out design.
• Her Normal Attacks only work well close up.
• The only Rangy Normal she has worth using is a 7 Frame one Tool predictable cr.Medium Punch.
• She’s Highly Predictable.
• She has only 1 Wake UP.
> EX Oroshi

This is not more about me not thinking USFIV is balanced.
It’s more about me thinking her character design has no longevity and is an unviable based off random build of a character, and this is my favorite character I’m talking about.

Yet I definitely understand where your coming from. You don’t have to respond to this. I’m not trying to prove a point. I know you may like Makoto as a risk character and that’s fine.

What I will do though is shorten her Karakusa Recovery further so that she can’t be Punished by a Neutral jump. That’s not a hard task seeing as jumping in USFIV was commonly 4+36 Frames. Thank you so much for your post. The Karakusa default removal is a big change that I did not expect long time Makoto players to accept as you said. My Xbox live account is running out and I no longer care to continue it for personal goals I have right now. Although I will be buying that PS4 just for SFV. Maybe you wanna get some games with me now?

Are you serious ? Spamming people with notifications, which get sent by email with the default parameters of the forums is just wrong.
Go away.

I’ll commend you on your efforts for all the thought you put into this. And while I think you have some interesting ideas, there are some things that I just do not want coming anywhere near Makoto.

For one thing, I would love for Hayate to go back to a 3rd Strike feel. Ex Hayate is the only safe option. Regular Hayate worked wonders for post-hayate mix up.
I never EVER want to see Makoto get a super safe normal hayate.** She is not meant to be played as a special spammer**. Basically, I’d like more of a reward rather than less risk.

Restricting Karakusa is a no in my books. It’s a different take on her that would probably work with your version of Makoto, but to me that is also just not Makoto.

Those are really my biggest problems worth mentioning here. To me, I’d like a cross between 3rd Strike Makoto and USF4. I know I’ve had my fair share of whining when I see characters just mashing specials on me and staying safe on blind pressure, while I can get punished for the simplest of errors. But at the end of the day, Makoto has her defined type of rushdown. That’s the character I’ve been playing for years and would prefer them to expand on that sense and perfect it without changing her into a completely different archetype.

I understand your feelings completely and I agree. I just hope the already established method of Makoto if put into SFV is made to be balanced. The major reason I made this version of her. The slow movement and no long range Normals (only Cr.mp, 7 Frames). But yea I feel you.