Just a little… note. Hell as a concept isn’t restricted to Hell in the Christian sense. Hell is defined in other religions such as 2 forms of buddhism, hinduism, TONS of animist faiths… etc. etc. Reading this thread is my own personal hell < another “hell”. I dunno, just 2 pennies thrown in this conversational well.
I agree. This is what it comes down to, really. Capcom says the plot or some sort of bg info goes from A to B and now you have people trying to explain what happened in between. Nobody really knows so anything anyone spouts off is just opinion until proven with facts produced by Capcom. It seems all SF games fail to make sufficient reference to the plot of the games before it so you’re left trying to piece together the plots as best you can on your own. I have read before that Capcom cares so little that devs actually think that every game is in its own universe but then if you dig deep enough, there are certain little sections in the SF:EC that specifically tie the plots form each game together, albeit, in subtle ways.
I also remember Seth saying that Evil Ryu and Oni were actually canon and that some of the devs really wanted to flesh the story of those guys out, but there wasn’t enough time. But for people who actually pay attention to the plot, this was kind of a crazy thing to introduce and then say it is canon without explaining how. Again, just another example of how little they care, for God sake, they included SFIII characters and failed to given even a hint at SFIII’s oncoming plot. I mean they didn’t have to, but really? Who does that.
Also to note, I too think that Darkstalkers lore, specifically, is really crazy. I bought an art book with an encyclopedia in it some time ago, and there was some wild information in there. I don’t like how that series ended on a cliff hanger.
You’re wrong because you aren’t actually offering any information. You’re just ranting and reiterating stuff that has already been refuted through newer games (which you had admitted you are ignorant of) and better translations (of which you are apparently ignorant of the source material). Also the OP was written over two years ago…I’m pretty sure of this shit by now.
Find the quote. Go find the source of the quote if you’re so sure that’s what got said. Because it’s not in the fucking game like you are insisting it is. It NEVER says “the more you sin the harder you die”. I have already put what the quote is several times. I have factually put what the quote is. You are making up a quote/pulling one from your ass/using an incorrect one THEN applying meaning to it. How the hell could that be correct? “The game you played?” The fuck you talking about? Bring some proof, son.
Yeah except many times in the guide books they DO confirm events.
First, the move was not stated to fuck over evil people worse. That is pulled from your ass (again, waiting for the proof). Second of all this (MU WAS NOT FUCKIN’ MENTIONED IN SFA3) is too fucking funny.
“Onore wo mu ni suru”
MU
The reason why Gen survived the Raging Demon…from Capcom’s own SFA3 supplementary materials.
In other words: Shut up. Go home. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
And you don’t think about this shit at all, so what are you doing here? The material states Gen used Mu. Fact. The only people to EVER canonically get hit by the SGS and live are Gen and Gouken. Both used Mu. Nothing current or corroborated points to anyone else (Bison & Gill included) getting hit with the SGS.
Oh he dies? Looks knocked out to me. And just because you saw it in the game doesn’t make it a canon event. Akuma was a hidden boss. An easter egg. He had no canon story place in the game at the time of his inclusion.
You can believe something all you want…do you have anything canonical to support it?
For someone that “doesn’t give a damn” you’re writing fucking paragraphs, man. You’re wrong. What you’re referencing is wrong. Facts you’re using don’t exist or are incomplete.
Capcom HAS already said what the move is…Akuma says it himself. “One moment, 1000 strikes”. That is what the SGS is. Stated IN GAME.
Now whether or not he speaks metaphorically…dunno. I’m putting my money on metaphor. Game-wise if it really was 1000 strikes Capcom could have done the 1000 hit combo cap easily just solely for that move…could of…
Yeah. Kinda hard to know if it’s literally 1000 strikes. I suppose it’s possible. I think the SGS was originally created in a time when 15 hits was already pretty damn high…and 1000 for a combo would have just looked like parody. Hmm.
Well I figured it would be like an easter egg. Either that or those 15 strikes felt like 1000…dunno.
Asian cultures are well known for speaking in idiomatically. In order to say there were a lot of people in Chinese we say “人山人海” which translates directly to People-mountains-people-oceans. Pretty much saying that there was a sea, a mountain, a whole visible landscape entirely filled with people. This phrase has been used to describe a subway station during holiday seasons.
There wasn’t a time when 15 was a high number unless you go back to practically prehistoric times in Asia. The metric/base 10 counting system is built into our language far more deeply than even latin root languages. I applaud your efforts, but you can’t approach this too scientifically. It could be an idiom, it could be lazy designers, it could be simple psychology and game design. If I got a 50 hit combo using akuma I’d be psyched, if I got a 1015 hit combo with akuma I wouldn’t be as psyched because a majority of that counter was raised through a gimmick despite the former number being the same.
Also, although his source material isn’t as complete as you, I personally think that the root of his argument is PLAUSIBLE. There very well COULD be a supernatural element to SGS. Maybe not with something cosmically significant like heaven or hell, but certainly something that’s non corporeal. Remember that this was a game first, a game that was really really shitty (used pneumatic buttons for Christ’s sake). Canon is something that is so difficult to establish. Logic is something that is impractical to use. I would prefer this stay in the realm of conjecture and not attempt to establish ultimate truth. This way this thread can stay alive as alternative theories, and provide endless sources of entertainment as well as multiple possibilities for the thousands of viewers on this board to ruminate over; rather than your personal journal into your hypothesis of the mechanics of SGS.
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So then you do have low readin’ comprehension. I NEVER said that my view was a fact, and I’m sayin’ that your’s aint fact either. You’re just as “wrong” as I am. lol
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This is hilarious…
AKUMA:
"The more evil your past doings, the more painful your death."
Where are you gettin’ your shit from, cuz it damn sure aint the games?
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The SF guide books confirm very few events that actually occur at the end of the games.
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Are you a retarded? “Onore wo mu ni suru” means to “empty your spirit/self” which is what the fuck I said Gen did to survive. I meant SFA isn’t talkin’ about Mu in this super ridiculous philosophical way you’re tryin’ to force people into. It is as it was said, deal with it.
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Gen emptied his soul, that’s all I’m sayin’ and that’s all I’ve been sayin’, call it whatever the fuck you want. And Bison is seen bein’ hit with the SGS in the game. It happens in the game, as clear as day. YOU have to prove that it didn’t happen. I don’t have prove that it did…since it did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGgERboVsXM
You are are correct about Gill, tho. Akuma jumps and and kills your rival, not Gill. I was wrong about that one. -
Don’t try to argue semantics, that’s pathetic. Akuma jumps in and hits Bison with the SGS. What evidence do you have that Akuma wasn’t canon?! Hell, what evidence do you have that characters like DJay, T.Hawk, E.Honda and Fei Long ARE canon?! SF’s canon is a fuckin’ mess. lol
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Not gonna get in a pissin’ contest with you about who cares more or less about this shit. I just know I aint tryin to force my opinion on others so that I can feel important.
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Akuma also says alotta other shit like, “your sins will kill you, not his fists”, “witness the death of your soul”, “If you are merciless, your soul will be slaughtered!”, “It’s time for you to experience a million deaths in an instant!”, and “And now, evil one, you reap what you have sown!”.
Just cuz you like your idea best, doesn’t make it fact. Come back here when you have REAL PROOF, from Capcom. Til’ then, hush.
What’s funny is, none of the explanations posted in the op actually come from Capcom. This is akin to trying to explain some of Final Fantasy VII’s mysteries by using the real story of Bahamut and the real story Sephiroth to tie up loose ends. Or trying to explain plot holes in Naruto by applying real world ninja beliefs that are loosely mentioned or used with a great deal of liberty and then passing it off as fact. You simply can’t do that. It’s cool, but you can’t rage when people point this.
QFT
I’m not sayin’ what exactly happens durin’ the move as a fact, I just offered up an opinion based upon what’s been said in the games. There is enough room in what has been said to believe that somethin’ besides “Akuma hittin’ you really fast” is goin’ on durin’ the attack. There is enough room for people to have different opinions about this subject. I actually don’t think Akuma is draggin’ anybody to Hell, I’ve said this at least 3 times already, but a spiritual assault is very possible considerin’ their is a heavy focus on soul/spiritual powers in these games. They are video games and they contain plots and information that Capcom has left wide open for interpretation.
Idk why this is so hard for him to understand.
Exactly, it’s like trynna use ancient Chinese chi beliefs to explain why Goku can use the Kamehameha Wave…And then gettin’ mad at people for usin’ other tidbits of info within DB to form a different opinion. It’s ridiculous. I’m only gonna go buy what is in the games, Word of God, and source books. If other folks choose to do other shit, that’s fine, I don’cur.
Is that where Ed Boon got the idea for Scorpion’s 2nd fatality?
Dear SRK, I hate you for bringing this thread to my attention.
The person that brings actual facts to the discussion is typically far more correct than the person just repeating stuff they “heard that one time”.
Where am I getting my shit from? How about the original Japanese texts, source books and reference materials from the creators? Where are you getting it from? Oh yeah, obsolete information released in a format (the US releases) that was NEVER canon to begin with.
Try to keep up here. We’re discussing the canon of Street Fighter using canon source material. That does not mean the version of SF Alpha you played on your Saturn in Hoboken.
Also what you’re posting has already been addressed both in the OP and in this thread…several times. The quote is that Akuma tells the victim not to blame his fist for their death but rather their own inequities. They are killed by their “sins”. Your weakness. Your lack of training. Lack of ability. Akuma fucking MURDERS people. He is a character steeped in Buddhism that is a HORRIBLE BUDDHIST and is rife with actual sins. “Sin” or “wrong doing” to US is not the same thing as to Akuma. How is that not obvious? I’ll also point out the fact that of the three people included in discussion of the SGS (Gouken, Gen and, for sake of argument, Bison) Gouken is the only one that got totally fucked up by it and the guy is basically a saint. How the hell does that make sense if it’s based on “sin”? Oh right…it makes no sense whatsoever.
Yeah-huh.
And why do you think that is what that phrase means? Oh right because you HEARD IT somewhere and just accepted it. Or did you translate it yourself? The phrase means to “open ones self to nothingness”. There is NOTHING NOT philosophical about that. It is ENTIRELY philosophical and rooted in Zen Buddhism, martial arts lore and the teachings of folks like Lao Tzu. These games aren’t made in a vacuum by robots…they’re made by human beings with cultural backgrounds that inject those backgrounds into the material they make. That you don’t want to think about stuff has no baring on the thought that went into it.
Gen used Mu to survive. He reached a state of Mu/nothingness and was able to “defend” against the SGS by doing so. That is all canon from the supplementary material. The material I have. The material I have read. The material I have translated several times to try to get the most meaning out of it. I didn’t just read it somewhere on a wiki and regurgitate it thinking I’m correct.
No, Gen did not “empty his soul”. That has already been addressed. Repeatedly. That phrase doesn’t even make sense.
Yes, I am sure SFs canon is a mess…not your understanding of it. Pretty much everyone that posts around here has a fair handle on SFs canon. Are there some obscure things? Sure. Are there some debatable things? Absolutely. Are there sources to help clarify much of this? Yes. Again, that you’re ignorant of something isn’t an excuse to tell other people they don’t know what they’re talking about.
You already said I “think too much” about it…which is tacit admittance that you think less about it.
All English quotes. Very nice. Feel free to join the actual canon discussion any time.
Coming from someone that has only quoted poorly translated (or purposefully changed) English games? Yeah okay. GTFO, man. I’ve got a bookshelf of real proof. What do you have? Oh that’s right…some shit you heard on the interwebs one time and thought it made you know what the fuck you were talking about. Okay.
Wow. i’m late into this one.
I just want to contribute.
From a Buddhist standpoint, a third way of looking at it, when Gouki says “You are killed by your sins”, it actually means karma has caught up with you. It is not my fist that kills you , but it is that karma has caught up with you. i.e. if Gouki hadn’t been the one to kill the person, something else would have a la Final Destination Style. So YES Physically Gouki has just bashed you to death…(And NO he probably doesn’t believe that he will get bad karma for this because it is just that person’s karma catching up on him. And Gouki is the tool for that to happen.)
And this ties in very very closely to “Onore Wo Mu ni Suru”, it is simply saying, “I have become Mu.” At this point I’d like to mention that Mu is likely here used as a concept where, you have no more karmic delusions as a person with Buddhist nature. When you become Mu, you are free from repercussions of karma. I don’t want to make this TLDR, but I can safely say that those who understand the generalities of what is Samsara, how to break out of it, what Kleshas are, and how understanding Wu is just one of the ways of attaining liberation etc, have a much much easier time understanding how this all plays a part of how Gen survived the SGS or why Gouken has Mu on his back.
So 2 things.
- Gen might have attained Mu, and might have had meditative concentration and also great discipline, but he does still have that hang up about dying in glorious battle with a strong fighter so…i don’t know if he’ll actually break out from Samsara.
- But if we overlook that as the ONLY thing , then he likely has done away with the other emotions of fear and anger and anxiety and all that PLUS he super disciplined and super focused and Gouki can sense that he’s attained Mu (Which plays into what happened after the fight), then it’s very likely Gen survived SGS just because he’s REALLY THAT GOOD. And not distracted by even an ounce of feelings or unskillfulness.
So INDIRECTLY it is because Gen emptied his soul, but no in the " Nah Nah My Soul Is Empty You Can’t Drag My Soul Down To Hell Nah nah!" (And there’s that whole thing about SGS not being instant ‘Hell" Murder’ but “Instant Entrapment Murder” and thereabouts).
And then what happens when Gouki wins? He lets Gen go because Gen is sick. Gouki doesn’t kill him because Gouki doesn’t feel that it is Gen’s time to die, and doesn’t feel that he himself is the tool to dispense Gen’s fate of ‘death’, because Gen has achieved Mu!. Seriously would Gouki let Gen live if he thought that this fight was all about 'Oh it’s time for you to die because Kamma has caught up on you and it is your time."
ALSO, Capcom has probably taken creative liberties with all these information about Buddhism, so expect shortenings and more generalisations. Like ‘Using Mu To Stop SGS’ kind of thing. But I’m just here trying to say, that I do see that it is wayyy more logical when it comes to the many quotes and to the characterisations of the characters the way this thread has been putting it out, compared to the “LOOK I’M A MAGICIAN, YOUR SOUL IS NOW IN HELL!” And suddenly Gouki is a Soulmancer, Gen is Soulless, and Gouken doesn’t know what to sew on the back of his clothes so ‘Mu’ is just his placeholder.
Ok I realise I’m saying the same thing with different words. And it’s becoming TLDR, and it is extremely possible that those unfamiliar with Buddhism might take a while to understand this. but please do take your time to digest it. Please?
And btw to the dude who was wondering if the last hit of the SGS was that Gouki thrusts his arm through you…No. That was the only way Ryu could survive the SGS, Ryu himself was the one who impaled himself onto Gouki’s arm, so that he would have a Bloody Chance To Survive. The reason behind it was because in the manga, SGS is roughly like a series of hadokens released into the body, I would imagine that last hit would have totally destroyed your internal organs if it had had hit. Ryu probably was like “Let’s see, Lungs AND Kidney AND Liver AND Stomach AND intestines AND heart? Ok maybe if I do THIS impales himself into the last hit He’ll just puncture My Lungcoughgagbloodeverywhere. #don’tknowhowI’mstillbreathing #atleastmylunchisintact #ithoughti’mgoingtogetthiswoundfromAsura”
And to the other dude who asked if YagamiFire could have shortened his posts from earlier on? The answer sadly is No, because due to the nature of these discussions, it is the explanations and details that reveal the truth, not a summary. I have been caught in such situations before, where we need to discuss, but have been ignored because of people going TL;DR (Why are we ‘Discussing’ it then? We should just hashtag and tweet everything like #SGSDrasgyersoul and someone replies with #Nobecauseofyoudon’tknowBuddhism and then everyones confused).
I’ve always felt that SGS is a physical attack (See: Ryu Final) and that the whole “soul/hell/sin” thing is a terrible Western/Christian mistranslation of an Asian concept (Buddhism in this case). I totally agree with you Yagami and Roki.
I would like to deviate a bit though to a related topic of souls and SF.
Similarly I’ve also felt that there has been a mistranslation regarding the origin of Rose. The idea that she was ‘exorcized’ is very odd to me. I know that Bison’s consciousness is not limited to his physical form and can possess the bodies of others, and not necessarily killing them in the process. Professor X from X-Men has a similar ability. But the idea of splintering his “soul” into two parts doesn’t seem to fit. I think there has been a big fuck up since Alpha 3 regarding Bison and Rose but I’m not sure what it is.
Bison’s encounter with SF4 has been no help at all and only adds to the confusion.
Yeah the Bison-Rose Soul thing is…something hah. If I recall correctly, she was in the womb, fine and healthy, then got hit by Bison splintering off his goodness. Maybe not literally his soul/spirit/ etc, but maybe it was a form of essence? The whole basis of their powers is psychic phenomena, so maybe something got a little lost in translation, kind of like how Cammy’s a “clone” not a genetically altered/engineered child, and the DBZ Androids are more like cyborgs rather than their namesakes?
Psycho and Soul Power are mental disciplines, both manifestations and manipulations of psychic energy. Bison and Rose being the only practitioners of this lost art (probably because Bison killed his peers) is the probably the reason why they “share the same soul”, IE it’s metaphorical and not Soul in the Judeo-Christian sense of the word. I’m not privy to the Japanese SFA3 Rose ending but the english one barely makes any sense. But here is what I can muster:
1- Rose refers to Bison as Master, implying she could’ve studied under him or with him before he went psychopathic on everyone.
2- Before Rose destroys Bison, Bison explains that his soul cannot be extinguished and asks her to foresee the future. In this vision, Rose sees that Bison did not die but has in fact possessed her body (an ability that Rose did not think Bison can do hence her surprise). Bison explains to her that they will become “two lives sharing one soul” which really means two consciousness inhabiting one body, he then explains that it is her that will “stand victorious at the day of doom” as in that it is through her that Bison will survive and achieve victory, referencing the fact that he has possessed her in this vision.
3- The most important piece of evidence is the fact that Bison asks her to see the future. Bison and Rose never were “two lives sharing one soul” in the past, the vision that Rose sees and Bison explains is of an event that was yet to happen.
4- The confusing part is “We’ll return to where we belong as our wish”, which could really mean that “you brought this onto yourself” or even “be careful what you wish for” because she’s been trying to stop him for two games and hasn’t figured that he’s simply more powerful than her.
Her SF4 Epilogue makes no mention of them sharing a history together as one person, only of the possession I just described. I’m not sure what Bison took from her but I believe he wiped her memory of the events. The “with interest” part is a reference to him kidnapping her (which was stopped by Guy). I do not think he was referring to fragments of his “soul”. This is my take on it at least.
And yes, Cammy is not a clone, she is genetically engineered much like the the little girl in Balrog’s ending. However, much like Decapre, I do think they were engineered to be more sensitive to Psycho Power, which allows Bison to manipulate them easily and also by extension allows them some psycho power infused abilities.
Seth and Abel are also genetically engineered clones, however Seth and the 27 host bodies were cybernetically augmented to better withstand Bison’s power. I find it funny when they are referred to as androids.
Daemos, in regards to the SF4 Epilogue, Bison definitely seems to be wiping her memories…memories of all of Shadaloo and SINs data that Rose was privy too while in Bison’s body. That is certainly something he wouldn’t want her to have.
Hmm I might have to review some of that stuff. I have also always considered the “soul” stuff to be very fishy from the plot guide (as I’ve pointed out before). It definitely seems more like a Vader/Luke thing…but with psychic warriors…wait Jedi ARE psychic warriors. Hmm. I’ll have to think on this.
Oh thissss…from yearrrs agooo
Yes. Let me start by saying this. The whole soul split thing was created and propagated within Shoryuken forums. It is nowhere outside of it, it is nowhere in ANY outside source material I searched in, I even went to Japanese forums and the Japanese themselves don’t even see it anywhere near that way.
I tried to tell Vasili that this was a result of (no doubt he worked hard at it) mistranslation of a certain phrase or passage (I will edit here when I remember what it was, but it’s there in the thread a few years back, or sadly, in a PM now lost),
Anyway I found the old thread http://forums.shoryuken.com/t/m-bisons-nationality/13803/69 where we discussed part of it.
I can’t find the old one in the Fan Fic thread. It must be there, I remember trying to explain to Vasili his mistranslation of 違えど, where Bison says “Our Lives are different but our soul…”
Sorry Lord Vega if you’re reading this I think a long time ago we talked about what AAC said. I think it was around the time i started to slowly disappear for a while. It was in a PM. I still have it. Edit :Also Lord Vega, I do agree that Katsute no Shi might be referring to her Master who is not Bison, it’s simply the way it is written, and may be about completing the sentence “Master from before(he died)…” (and then trying to remember his warnings.) The fact is, I am forced to assume that Rose is Bison’s disciple simply because the interpreter of the ending in AAC decided to take it that way, even though she might not know the whole intention of the sentence. but anyway…
but yes, I’ve read, and AAC pretty much just said (and this is from the interpreters view but no need to go there)
- Rose is established to be Bison’s disciple. <This is the interpreters own understanding of the ending. As written in the index.
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From that point in her ending, their souls were as one.
^ That’s from the index
This is exactly just how it is.
Thanks for the post Roki, it’s not far off from what I interpreted from the English ending above (so I’m not crazy!). The most confusing statement which is yet to make sense is “We’ll return to where we belong as our wish” - what was their common goal? Capcom don’t think it to be relevant because they only part they reference in that ending is the possession that took place and explain how Bison used her body to get back to his base, transferred his consciousness into a new body and disposed of Rose.
Interestingly Bison did not kill her then and did not kill her in SF4. I guess he finds her useful like a tool and/or enjoys tormenting her (he refers to her as fodder in SF4 which implies Bison feeds off her fear/anger/hate by tormenting her possibly).