It’s kind of confusing. I’ve only seen characters get off multiple attacks in the air due to parries. and even then it looks like the game broke in half and didnt know what it was doing. it was in maybe a kuroda kumite where he was using oro or something.
im not sure its obvious what the recovery time is since normally you can’t actually do anything else after you attack in the air. you’re stuck either in the attack animation or you recover but you can’t do anything else. or you do it really late and you recover when you hit the ground.
not sure ESN may have a good explanation though if you post in the system mechanics thread.
^Im not completely sure what you are getting at but…
(I should not have put airEXDRA, since I didnt mean air to air; just EXDRA, which can only be don ein the air anyways, if that was a point of confusion)
Actually, now that I remember, when using the EXDRA sometimes if I hit ‘low’ (read: close to the ground), on grounded, standing blocking opponents, I will occasionally get a whiff throw (opponent still in blockstun).
Yeah, in dummy mode you can clearly see against Hugo the variance in block stun when you hit low vs high. I dont think I know enough about the game to know if hitting high leaves you vulnerable enough to be thrown or short,short>supered (and of course this will, again, be char dependent due to the height differences).
A quick test on dummy record (which is extremely glitchy as well as my timing for mash throw being garbage, so this info is not infallible):
-twelve could jump to avoid normal throw by Yun/Ibuki following an EXDRA blocked at all heights (again, i realize, mash throw is a crappy way to do this)
-twelve could not jump to avoid normal throw by Ryu following an EXDRA blocked around head level of ryus sprite
-twelve could not jump to avoid normal throw by Hugo following a blocked EXDRA unless it was blocked below ~mid level of Hugo’s sprite (edit: reversal 360 catches when EXDRA is blocked ~above Hugo’s waist -ouch; I guess this means 720 will catch even lower)
also:
-airEXAXE seems inconsistent as to whether it is safe or not on block at point blank range
Unless I am wrong Hugo’s 360 has the same number of startup frames as normal throws (2). And 720 is zero (catches on 1st frame)? Also jumps come out immediately and are throw invulnerable for all startup frames? Am I correct on these?
Nice idea about the counter-hitting OS, but as you said, unfortunately XNDL is ridiculously inconsistent/useless from some ranges. It does have applications as a chip KO counter-hit OS instead though.
Yep. Depth, height, speed of trajectory, etc are all a pain in the arse to account for. Consider Twelve’s j.lp animation: it’s universal regardless of whether it’s a neutral jump, directional jump, within an air dash, etc. But the problem is that those three airborne attack states inherently change the application and outcome of the attack despite the fact it’s an identical attack every time.
I think you’re right about everything except the immediacy of jumps (Dreamcast 3S frame data, subtract 1 frame from all figures to make 3SOE data I think). You can jump out of throws because even though jumps/superjumps aren’t instant, they are throw-invulnerable throughout those start-up frames. This is why you can always jump out of grabs on wake-up, but why a meaty hit jails you to the ground like normal even if you’re just holding up, and why sometimes Akuma and Hugo players use Demon Flips and Shootdown Backbreakers to try to minimise damage they can eat on wake-up (Flips and Backbreakers are airborne immediately, so a meaty cr.mk on wake-up RESETS them out of the air without them even seeming to leave the ground… sucks for Twelve not having an instant self-launcher!).
A short set from Sandybag’s and Katsudoro’s room the other day.
-I was playing on vacation at my parents, so I was playing with the stick in my lap and missing some airdashes, but other than that, the execution and strategic errors are all me
-I have been relying more on relatively well placed neutral jump HPs alot more in the Hugo matchup. Even though I dont catch him ducking (like I had imagined) it seems to keep him a tad bit more respectful overall (also I have a terrible habit of retreating to the corner and getting stuck, the neutral jump HP helps stall my retreat and resets the matchup).
-On Hugo I need to get over the problem of hitting him too high on jumpins and getting thrown as I try to either cr.LK or cl.MK.
-Any other glaring problems or suggestions here? I was definitely a bit predictable, he obviously caught onto my gameplan our second match. Help me.
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Katsudoro is definitely the best Oro I have played online (and real nice guy). Oro has a lot of tricks up his sleeve, and you just have to gauge your opponent to see what he tends to do. DO NOT get tagged by standing cl. MP, especially if he has meter. I often get caught by this while Im doing silly IAD mixups (antiair or parry antiair; this is where his real damage comes from).
-Oro often gets his cl. MP off of antiair parries. I try to go for ambiguous crossup J.RHs, and this really seems to remove the incentive for the opponent to go for the anti air parry into juggle. If I have meter I make sure the J.RH is deep and confirm into super.
-I do alot of blocking following Oro’s block strings as he has a number of frame traps, and his normals have sick range and stun
-As you can see, I was playing this forward throw->invisibilty game with him and he would do EXchickenkicks if he had meter. Sometimes it would hit and sometimes it wouldnt. I kept doing this to try to figure out whether or not it was him or I that was mistiming the special. He eventually figured this out and started doing a dashX2 st.RH or throw mixup which kind of nullified this. Although I am under the impression that a safer way to get the invisibility out is to tag them with the tail end of EX needles special while they are jumping. But on Oro I usually try to follow that up with another needle; sometimes it hits, sometimes it doesnt. Does anyone know which way is better to get out the invisibility? Very few opponents have a plan for Twelve’s invisibility. Katsudoro is the only opponent I have played that actively formulates one.
-People seem to think that Twelve should be backoff Oro on wakeup, but Im not entirely convinced. If he has no meter, Oro cant hurt you since his uppercuts get eaten by meaty J.RH. If you space/time a meaty J.RH well enough (it may have to crossup or just be deep/ambiguous I dont know–any help here?) his EX uppercut will completely whiff (see end of match 2). Once the opponent sees this happen he will be more cautious. Then you can make your knockdowns count. Anyone disagree with this assessment?
-With Oro’s double jump shenannigans, Twelve’s walk animation keeps him relatively low, so I try to walk behind him to throw whenever he does this. Although this may not be the best solution. Anyone else have good luck with anything else?
-Also, Im under the impression that max distance cr.RH is safe. I occasionally throw it out there, let me know if I am crazy.
-match three, RD 1 showcases Oro’s runaway game.
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Monthly update for my crap thread where I talk to myself;
here is me playing (mostly losing) against people that are better than me:
Hispanicjap:
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here his EXknee ripped me out of my favorite little anti-Alex corner setup; the tech rollprobably helped too:
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This guy (not Hispanicjap) hasnt figured out the matchup yet (looks like J.HK->super = >50% on Akuma):
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DaRage:
I do alot of usafe things without getting punished here; the cr.lk->lp.axe combo is only safe when at close range so that the axe hits 2X and also the cr.lk X2 is only safe when linked, and I should be more diligent with my timing)
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Katsudoru:
If you know that the oppnt is going to parry the jumpin go for the lkDRA, its prob the only use for it and it works
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MuralTag:
(EX ndl!/ and I finally get exposed for that cr.lk crap)
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Getting caught by Ken’s full screen air EX.tatsu out of my back IAD is a very common thing with me. I should tone that down against Ken in these situations. A calm EX needle hits that move anywhere it lands
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EatableTech:
This guy is a genius
and a beast when he has you in the corner:
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if only st.MK wasnt low and high parry:
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It was in this match that I realized how useful IAD->lp->tick throw was, especially against oppnts who like to red parry after IAD jumpins. It works very well and the mixup has improved my success greatly.
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and the Makoto matchup. This has to be 9:1, Makoto. I just cant get anywhere on her. Here is me just being toyed with. Any suggestions:
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Hey dude, only just seen your PM from back in May. Not been on SRK recently. But I don’t really think your 12 needs much help either!
Don’t use cr.HP, it’s actually possible for the other guy to parry the first hit and throw 12 out of the rest. The only good cr. move Twelve has for poking is MK (although I sometimes do cr.LP to stuff any suspected laggy pokes if I’m at a distance where their laggy poke would whiff AND if he doesn’t have meter to cancel into super or whatever if it hits or I get the timing wrong or whatever).
General match-up thing, I saw a st.HK in one of your videos against Chun-Li when she had super stocked. She can reversal SAII on hit, so never use that move
Never do air-to-ground DRA, massively unsafe on block, obviously. I sometimes do EX DRA air-to-ground which is a bit safer but that’s a bad habit I can probably cut out too. Normal DRA is best used for escaping the corner (super jump, air-dash, immediate DRA) against characters who can’t super it on reaction (Chun-Li SAII, Makoto SAII, Ryu SAI, etc)
I disagree with what some people said above, anti-air XNDL isn’t parry bait offline, because the timing of the first parry is really ambiguous. It’s been a clutch move for me in tournaments. Yeah, sometimes people parry it, but 1) the timing is ambiguous enough that you can rely on it 2) it’s his biggest damage anti-air 3) because it’s a super, the other guy can’t tech roll, so you’re then free to set up a air-dash HK cross-up.
Best punish when parrying moves with a lot of recovery (last kick of Chun SAII) is HP AXE, not MP xx LP AXE
Directional throws > neutral throws, very rare you’ll get to stun a decent player
Be careful of your poking patterns after IAD. You do a lot of lows to poke yourself back to safety, which is fine, but it’s worth remembering that 1) parry attempts are almost risk free for the opponent because unless you’re point blank, you’re not going to get any damage out of poking low and 2) Twelve doesn’t have any decent pokes outside of point blank range that hit empty low parry attempts. Usually what I do is mix up the timing (delay the low pokes), UOH, walk-up throw or just another IAD. If you’re close enough, MK cancelled into IAD is good too but you already do that!
But your Twelve is solid. I think it’s just general match-up exp you need. Just some stuff from watching your latest round of vids:
Akuma
You air-dash a lot in this match-up. I’d try and scrub this habit. When you’re both at neutral, Akuma is likely to jump with an air hurricane, which obviously blitzes through air dashes. EX DRA is good, which you did (annoyingly it trades with air hurricane a lot) but yeah, watch your air-dashing in neutral situations. IAD is still good though.
Alex
Safest way to chip KO is to high air dash - cross-up with AXE. Never with DRA!
Alex doesn’t seem to know the match-up (who does know the Twelve match-up lol) but the safest spots are either full screen (building meter, EX tentacles) or directly above Alex’s head in the corner. Alex is likely to lead by jumping at Twelve and his air priority stuffs a lot of Twelve’s attacks and you don’t want Alex up close either. But yeah, building meter and chipping away when Alex tries to get close is the best way to play against a really good Alex. It’s actually a weirdly hard match-up.
Ken
You get hit in the corner a lot from mid-range. There’s no need to press buttons in this situation - Ken needs to get close to either throw, overhead or cr.LK, cr.LK. Don’t poke back, just wait for a good spot to escape. If Ken does poke with sweep/st.HK, you can use the recovery to super jump and escape. If he tries to dash at you, you can poke him with cr.LK. If he tries walking at you, super jump. There’s risk here but there’s no point pressing buttons at mid-range, as there’s nothing you can threaten him with when backed right up in the corner.
Oro
I have no advice here, the Oro match-up is a circus act of running away, random pokes and prayers. I’d say it’s Twelve’s third hardest match-up (after Ken and Urien)
Mostly Oro players with pick SAIII in this match-up and one thing worth remembering is that when trying to DRA over Oro to escape the corner, you can actually hit one of the bits of rubbish floating around him (!) does no damage and worse, Twelve goes into his flip recovery in front of a Tengu Stone-activated Oro
Urien
The biggest mistake here is at 1:25 where you keep throwing out cr.LKs instead of getting out of the corner. This is the one match-up where you absolutely have to stay out of the corner no matter what and get out of the corner above everything else - blocked shoulders lead into Aegis Mirrors, Aegis Mirrors lead into combos, combos lead into corner knockdowns, corner knockdowns lead into unblockables (Urien can do the kneedrop unblockable on Twelve). The Urien you play doesn’t capitalise but then you run straight to the other corner. You need to try to hold down the middle of the screen, if you get backed up into the corner, you’re at a huge disadvantage. One thing worth saving your meter for is that Urien is the easiest to anti-air with XNDL. Random shoulders (from distance) are easy to parry and punish, dashes are easy to spot when you look for them, walking lets you drop HKs on his head from above. Just don’t walk yourself into the corner!
Makoto
Yeah, it is a tough match-up. I think Ken/Urien are Twelve’s toughest, then Oro, then Makoto/Yun.
You need to save meter for EX DRA.
Try not to jump too much. Makoto and Oro (for me) have the most air priority over Twelve’s attacks, air-to-air NOTHING seems to beat Makoto out.
I’ll usually start the match walking back and forth doing random cr.LPs (in case Makoto tries to dash/random hayate, cr.LP recovers faster than cr.LK) and the odd cr.MP (to build meter). You can mix in the odd IAD MP/MK and st.HK mixed in but keep it grounded until you see how Makoto is playing the match-up. Is she jumping at you? Being patient? Dashing in?
If Makoto is jumping, you need to keep creating distance from her. She’s hard to anti-air thanks to that axe-kick and if she gets the knockdown, then the horrible guessing games begin. This is where EX DRA comes in handy - you can at least meet her in the air with something that will knock her down, and then you get one mix-up attempt before the situation (more than likely) resets.
If she’s being patient, you can start air-dash mix-ups. Makoto has a big blind spot directly over her head, which you can attack with air-dash HK. You can then mix in air-dash MK (whiff) > throw or whatever.
If Makoto is using SAI, you’re going to have a really hard time on wake-up, as she can karakusa or st.MP hit-confirm, or cr.LK > LP Hayate link. What you do is up to you as there’s no one-size-fits-all solution but if I have super, I will guess a parry on wake-up and go for MP xx SAI to punish. I feel as though you’re forced to make the guess in this situation.
If you jump away from a post-Hayate mix-up, be ready to air parry - Makoto might do tiger knee EX axe-kick (which can catch Twelve) or jump straight after him
You also outlined some big weaknesses for me:
-I have only recently started actively mixing up my post-IAD pokings to become less predictable, so that is still a weak point of mine.
-I tend to nervously overuse IAD in certain matchups where I should recognize that I need to be more conservative.
-And pressing buttons in the corner is just me getting straight up exposed. I think this is some SF fundamentals that I have not been grasping across games. In these situations with Twelve I suppose taking the opportunity to jump and escape would be way more beneficial, thats scary but Im going to try that more.
I have been stuck on exploring Hakan on SF4 (char is amazingly fun, dont hate) so I havent played SF3SOE in the past month, but I will try to get some more Twelve footage to put up, if it means I can get more feedback like this.
Definitely a lot of potential in your gameplay, as far as I can tell. You may be new player, but you are like a raw diamond. Don’t worry about people saying that Twelve is one of the weakest characters in the game, because that only counts in high level play. At the casual level, Twelve is DOWN RIGHT AWESOME.
You need to add some more D.R.A. (Air Dive) to your game. Try frustrating the opponent by constantly doing D.R.A. back and forth as he mindlessly tries to catch you. Just as he is about to lose his nerve, you go for a jumping HK combo. You should ALWAYS go for a taunt after landing this combo. Land a hit on him while being invisible and its game, set, and match.
Hope this advice helps and keep up the good work.
Roshihikari.
just curious, I have a bad habit of throwing out s.hk’s if I throw them or if they are getting up as a sort of insurance that they stay put for a second so I can plot my next move. I go for max range though. Is this move easily punishable from max distance and if so, who should I NOT try it on? I have a habit of doing it after a j.hp, most people block it or try and counter and get hit due to the delay. but yeah, I’m always debating how I should use his s.hk.
that would be nice someone to run the test that in training mode…
Like with anything in this game; dont become predictable. I know that Chun can land super after blocking it, but6 if you give the opponent reason to OS high parry on wakup or after J.HP while you are at max st.HK range, the gamble with probably pay off dividend for your opponent if they have suitable super (+ meter) or special
I cant lie, I readily use it as a pressure tool also until an opponent gives me cause to reconsider
but I really dont feel compelled to do the rundown in training, but maybe someone else would
Havent played in a long time, trying to get back into it but Im just not measuring up.
Here is a video with some IAD mixups on a beginner Hugo (and in that 1st round, I was relying pretty heavily on those st.RHs you were talking about ScumGale that Sidewinder will parry into HammerMtn 95% of the time). (-and I edited my response to you ScumGale, it was orignly a bit rude, I dont know what got into me-)
These mixups are tough on a solid Hugo (who will poke you out), and certainly dont go for the OTG SA on a good player (tech roll will evade). But just for the sake of posting a video and keeping this section somewhat alive, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSwjRRET9ng&feature=c4-overview&list=UUc_NEsmdgMPcNF8IPAO_G5A
…and maybe someone else will post a video next
ESN may have a good explanation though if you post in the system mechanics thread.