friend of mine shared this the other day lol
altho I love bud.
Honestly I never played enough SF4 to know much about it. It just never felt right to me. What I love about ST and 3S is their snappy feel. The controls are so tight that movement alone is satisfying. SF4 does not have that. It feels like playing SF under water. Just couldnât ever get into it.
I wish I could click on Agree and LOL on this post.
1- Is there no 100% answer for jump ins in 3s? jumping should always be a risk imo.
2- What are the benefits of walking in and out of a certain range, in other words baiting something, if you are not going to punish it?I see a lot of this- P1 baits an attack p2 bites p1 does nothing. Is it because they dont have the reactions?
3-How do you determine what normals are good? Iâve heard kens s.hk is solid in 3s but in sf4 its a bad normal despite having better frame data than 3s.
4- Its impossible to whiff punish necros long range normals right? Is Spacing still important in a mu like this?
Thanks guys.
Itâs still a risk to jump, mainly because youâve locked your movement and attack options for a solid second. There is a âwill he parry or notâ-mindgame, but that becomes a lot less scary when the grounded player also starts incorporating parries against jumps, or other less conventional AA-options. One really fun one is dashing under people while theyâre mid-air and punish them on landing.
The AA-game in 3S is different from other SF-games, but jumping still carries the same inherent weaknesses in this game. I made a list of the AA options I commonly use in the FAQ-thread (which is where this should have been posted imo), go check that.
Likely they were either not expecting a normal at all, or they were expecting a different normal, or just feeling out the waters for the habits of the other player. Could be several reasons.
Itâs a combination of hitboxes, startup, active frames, recovery, and which directions the move can be parried. Also, of course, damage and combo options. Thereâs really no good way to determine other than with experience, preferably against someone that knows how to deal with said normals. Also, test them in training mode to find out how to both use them properly and how to beat them.
In SF4, far HK gets destroyed by focus attacks, has fewer active frames than the 3S version iirc, shorter range, and is generally outclassed by Kenâs godly stepkick. It can be used to stuff certain things in SF4, but thatâs about it. Also, in 3S, itâs a poke with very good range that has to be parried high, which makes it nice to mix in with his sweep from max range, and the high amount of active frames makes it a good long-range meaty.
Sweeping the recovery of something like c.MK or c.HK is easy if they whiff, imo. I donât have much experience against Necro players, but in the few matches I have played I pretty much won on doing just that.
Stuff like s.HP and the like canât be swept, but if spaced properly you should be able to beat them out with stuff like s.HP, c.MP and the like. Go test it in training mode.
Thanks bro^ In training now cant whiff punish his cr.mk im playing on ps2 btw does that make a difference?
Whiff punishes on necro are a lot like whiff punishes against sim. Crouching fierce xx fireball or something. You can actually use the cr. fierce as counter poke or whiff punish.
âŚnever mind the comments about Necro normals, apparently I remembered completely wrong. I went ahead and tested it in training mode, and I couldnât punish them on whiff either. Beating them on startup was pretty reliable though, so it was probably that I was doing.
Someone with more experience on that matchup can probably answer it better than me.
Iâll tryâŚ
There might be but thereâs no saying youâll pull it off 100% of the time. I havenât taken to calling the timings one name over another because the real reason itâs possible is that simple deduction can cut the air frames into âvivisectionsâ as Rowan AKA MrNoMoreFunland calls it. What you can do is cover your air time with parries, I believe you get something like 3 cuts per jump and then you can do your normals early so that they finish start up at the moment of impact, a bit before the moment or a bit after moment of impact. What you get out of the three situations is:
- Moment of ) You get the standard hit with physical advantage. This means that the hit registers positive for you and you have the means to do something with a slight bit more advantage over your opponents options. This means your grab will start in their recovery and you will have positive advantage even in a tech grab situation. You can start up an attack and stuff out their grab. You can move a frame or two after landing and before their action. There are a few more and this is best learned in practice.
- A bit before ) You get a non-physical advantage, maybe. What this means is that you do your normal just before your sprite ever reaches their sprite, on screen, and your attack lands on them as opposed to a seamed animation that looks the way a regular kick should. The reason itâs a non-physical advantage is that a replay of the situation might not show you as being the one carrying the advantage but your opponentâs likeliness to fumble about after you got an awkward hit on them is high enough that you could consider the situation to now be in your favor since you are more aware of what is actually happening as opposed to the opponent whose plans have now been offset a bit and possibly changed due to this offset.
Back to the air kick, itâs a bit early, the way the air mk cross up works, but on either side of the opponent. A good example of this is jump in early mk. You jump in at them and cover your ass with a parry and then notice you might get parried because their actions seem to line up with yours, or just arenât obvious, and so probably hidden within your own. What this does is it makes their parry attempt a walk forward and instead of parrying, they find themselves walking into your hitbox. - A bit after ) This is how you get the meaty combos to work out. You do a real deep jump in and hit with some super heavy attack or a quick one in order to make sure your air attack combos perfectly. The quick attack might require something like short short as a follow up and the heavy might give you enough time to start up a a grab bait situation or even a air heavy to ground heavy combo. The grab bait might work as such: You jump in and cover your ass with parries, done so well you manage to start up your Roundhouse jump in at the top of their sprite. They parried your heavy but due to the start up of the heavy, miss the parry window by a frame or two. They eat the heavy jump in and or manage to block it. You have now landed with an abundance of positive frames to their hit frames or their block frames, which is enough time for you to set up another combo or a frame trap situation, maybe another jump in, a grab situation, some difficult option select, etc.
Itâs probably to gauge the opponentâs response in regards to your anticipation. This might seem like an elitist example but I always ask myself, âare they really going to play the low forward game?â If they do, I start to walk into range and doing thing like UOH or jump in. Itâs my scrub check. The benefits of this could be that you have created a fork in their gameplan that digresses from a more secure point, yours, and in turn gives you advantage through a means of quicker options or it could help in the sense that you âcan see through the staticâ and are able to tack on an extra option to their set of possible options which would allow you to prepare for yet another of their approaches if you hadnât already considered that. For example, if youâre up close and want to play against his cancellable low mk, you would walk up to within his low mk range, block low and then UOH to block an immediate low and hop over a delayed one. If he were to do standing fierce against your walk up low block, you can now deduce the possible third option to be cr. mp because heâs telegraphed a floor and a ceiling and left the middle a little too open for him to attempt something slow like low forward this time around, has been shown his aloof standing fierce wonât work and that you are stuffing that empty space rahter casually, which is to say you arenât commited to any heavy handed approach at âdealing damageâ. The agile fox dies in a spray of shotgun fire. Bad comparison probably, maybe just lacking in tact, but it fits.
I donât know how to say that any one normal is better than another. I like to think each normal has a special place in its design that is unbeatable in that one respect. That is to say things like, if an attempt is made to intercept Cr. MP and hasnât managed to activate by the third frame, it will lose. If something attempts to intercept a close jab at the third frame, it will lose. Things like that. Having said that, there is no linear approach in 3s so things like better donât happen if not but once a match. The frame data, I think, helps you formulate an approximal system but will not feed you starting points though it does provide frames and other invariable attributes. The thing is that you can never truly say your opponent will do it any one way, all the time, for the sake of this or that. 3s is too organic for that. You could at best deduce a low, mid or high after a sequence or string of attacks but that will only throw you into another approximation of sorts.
I think why people tell you that Kenâs St. Roundhouse is solid is due to the fact that his hurtbox on that only flashes at the tip of the attack and is mostly found between his knee and the rest of his body. This means that if done at the right distance, it will only be beat by attacks with invincibility in the reaching area of the sprite or by well timed and quick little pokes, which still wonât put you in a bad position unless you somehow managed to miss the fact that they were playing a low and heavy position to manage a cr. rh or cr. mk on you.
I donât think itâs impossible but I could just be talking about of my theory ass. I use Ken cr fierce against his far fierce and rh, but have rarely managed to hit him out of his standing mk. Standing strong is a tough beat, as are back mk and down back hp. You could whiff punish those normals but they likely have like 1 or 2 frames of overlap with any one common normal and whiff punishing with jabs just seems like a waste of time.
Spacing is important in a match like that in that it keeps him from pulling off little match forks like dive kick to either grab or spinning lariat mix ups but they arenât dire straits. Necro is slow enough that not getting carried away by Necros dramatic movements is enough for you to avoid anything but strict 50/50 mix ups with 50/50 potential forks. Things like dive kick to grab/lariat which can then be turned into
grab -> oki/air reset -> oki/high+low
or
lariat -> oki/air reset-> high+low/grab/dive kick/pacing/pokes/etc.
Ultimately the highest regard you want to give necro in a match up like this is the extent of his punish and the willingness to keep the fight up close where his normals are not so good but his mix up potential is high. This is because if his punish is nothing more than his mix up, you can force the fight that way and play it off as if you are getting poked on accident and âfalling right into his trapâ where you just abuse quick start up/high invincibility frames. If itâs where his normals arenât good, you can just abuse that ST counter point, where they use something like a special and then try to poke into the engagement. Here you can just spot in uppercuts or stupid jump in games like the ones I mentioned earlier in the post.
Hope some of that helped.
Let me know if something doesnât make sense. I started to move stuff out of my room mid post and came back not knowing where I was.
Itâs very difficult to whiff punish a Necro cr. mk on pure reaction. There has to be some strict anticipation, and in that case you can probably just jump in.
Its all good, thanks for the help man.
Ryu feels like he has no weight or presence in that game
So I just picked whoever looked like they were supposed to be jumping around all over the place, air to air stupid stuff, and had fast walkspeed, with finally some okay throw(+kara) range, to try for a tick-> dash throw and died
NYEEUU NYYEU NYEEENEYEENEYE NEENEENYE NYEEEYEYEY <<- the menu theme song
Itâs not really a game of 'this normal is good, this isnât.
You just have to look at how the normal hits and is it high/low parryable and obviously if it can cancel.
That they have different timing and spacing and high/low is what makes them all kinda viable. You wonât see Ken using too much f.mk mostly because of the lack of pushback and that itâs ALSO negative so it can be dangerous against some characters. Otherwise itâs all game really even f.hk which you wonât see often just because you need to do the non-kick version enough to keep someone unsure what youâre doing since itâs not exactly fast. Those two are just more specific and thatâs what makes them challenging to use well. That and even if they work they donât become much more. But even moves like those which donât lead into more when you succeed create more mental room for you to work with to open your opponent up. You are threatening different spaces and timings and often all it takes is putting that in someones head to make them play a little different.
A large part of things is just being able to keep your opponent unsure what youâre going to do. If you can do that you win pretty much.
If Clackman comes to Next Level I request a Clakman kumite vs NYâs finest.
thereâs nothing thatâs a guaranteed anti air, but thereâs a lot of possible options you can choose between.
- uppercut like in other SF games (it helps if you mix up the timing)
- normals (which you can cancel into a special if it gets parried). sometimes you can hit a normal where even if they parry it they donât get anything and youâre still safe.
- Parry, or parry + normal at the same time. an easy example is Chun parry + roundhouse, but there are plenty of others
- walk back (you can walk back low forward if they commit to an attack, or you can walk back and then walk up right after they land)
- dash under their jump
- jump back with a normal (like Ken jump back roundhouse)
- crouch so that a jump in attack whiffs
- mash jab (this is usually just useful vs empty jump parry monsters and Iâm not convinced itâs a good idea a lot of the time)
- just block
which one you should pick depends on the matchup, your opponentâs tendencies, and the risk vs reward of the possible outcomes. so for instance, say youâre Ken vs a jumping in Dudley. if he lands a jump in he can take a bunch of your life and get a knockdown. in this situation mashing jab should not be on the table because the risk vs reward is heavily lopsided in his favor. that oneâs pretty obvious, but every decision can be broken down like this.
basically every choice has positives and negatives. walk back gives up space but is low risk besides that. anti air with a normal or special risks getting parried. blocking means you could eat the mixup if you guess wrong after. you just need to think about what makes sense, and if you lose in a specific jump in situation, watch the replay and think about the risk vs reward of that situation and the things you couldâve done instead to be safer or get better return off your guess.
I think dashing under is a good choice in a lot of situations if you can see the jump in. and sometimes you just need to block.
Jumping always carries risk in 3s, itâs just not as straightforward as in other SF games.
The irony is Clackman doesnât like Low Tier God. Now, you can say he doesnât like him because of his attitude. But I make you a bet that they see eye to eye on a couple of scrub quote-y things.
I donât care for shotoâs too much either but instead of complaining I stomp them.
I actually enjoy Clackman sometimes. The stuff he says really cracks me up.
Like at :22 to :30, couldnât help but laugh.
When are you coming by again Lance? Feel like we need another kumite for you after you level up some more.
Maybe even a Fight Card match.
Clackman is garbage.
Who is clackman?
Another OE only person?